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Syncronoid
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2012
Posts: 1111
Location: Stanford, CA and Bend, OR
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 Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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vanagonjr
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3431
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:10 am Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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Thanks Marco for the explanation. Really great read.
Even though I have a 1.8T, I love reading about this development for the WBX.
I do have one question regarding the knock sensor. I had read here that someone who had dissembled several of the higher compression DJ 112 engines had noted signs of detonation. I don’t how they noticed this - so I’m not sure it is true, but if your turbo application doesn’t require a knock sensor, why would the DJ112 “seemingly” benefit from one?
This is all based on if that observation was true and/or my memory of that thread is correct and/or my understanding of this is correct.
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Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 6360
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:23 am Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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| vanagonjr wrote: |
Thanks Marco for the explanation. Really great read.
Even though I have a 1.8T, I love reading about this development for the WBX.
I do have one question regarding the knock sensor. I had read here that someone who had dissembled several of the higher compression DJ 112 engines had noted signs of detonation. I don’t how they noticed this - so I’m not sure it is true, but if your turbo application doesn’t require a knock sensor, why would the DJ112 “seemingly” benefit from one?
This is all based on if that observation was true and/or my memory of that thread is correct and/or my understanding of this is correct. |
Maybe they ran in the US with low octane gasoline?
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hdenter
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008
Posts: 2754
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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The DJ engine was never sold here in the US.
Hans
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korfmach
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014
Posts: 247
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 11:13 am Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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Thanks Marco, et al. for the info. I didn't know about the wideband O2 sensor, apparently makes a big difference. I'm going to get the 1.35:1 rockers when they're available, and maybe get the FI later if my tax refund ever gets here.
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1989 Westy
2016 Golf TSI
Gone, but not forgotten:
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 6360
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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valvecovergasket
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 1492
Location: pnw
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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| thatbaldwinlife wrote: |
| Syncronoid wrote: |
From what I understand, GW uses a knock sensor because they are always running up near the knock threshold to meet CARB. Marcos's EFI doesn't run near the knock threshold because it's not meant to meet CARB. Perhaps not as good for the environment, but maybe a few more HP. Stand by for MM.
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Good point. Will you be doing a before and after dyno run to compare? Probably a hard thing to want to pay for though.
Nate |
even a full throttle datalog of the marco system in 4th gear from ~1500rpm or so to redline would tell us a lot. easy to do with the MS tools.
i have no doubts hes making significantly more power and likely getting better FE than an 80s factory injection system 
nothing new in the standalone conversion world!
id suspect GW may claim have smaller gains as theyre trying to meet emissions
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vanagonjr
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3431
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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| ALIKA T3 wrote: |
| hdenter wrote: |
The DJ engine was never sold here in the US.
Hans |
Yeah well it's not 1989 anymore, a lot of imports are roaming in murica.
Nobody gives details. |
In this thread-it is claiming the opposite of my memory. That denotation is not likely with the DJ 112.
[quote="D Clymer"]
| Petervw wrote: |
| D Clymer wrote: |
| Just curious here.. is the 89 octane the recommended fuel and would you know the "ignition timing" that you are useing for this particular motor |
No, not at all. The DJ was designed to run on 98 octane leaded fuel which they stopped selling in Germany after about 1990. That's why the DJ stopped being used there after 1989.
That's the big shocker. A 10.3:1 engine with a knock sensor can run happily on 89 octane, but this one runs without detonation with no knock sensor. years ago, I tried to run a 10:1 GTI engine on a non knock sensor ignition and 92 octane - and it pinged like crazy once it was warm. I started out running this DJ on 92 octane, but have found that 89 works fine. As Tencentlife noted, this combustion chamber design seems to be tops in term of knock resistance. Also, I think the Digifant ignition advance curves are pretty mild. I am running stock Digifant advance and have actually not experimented with more advance.
David |
_________________
John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
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RainierSyncro
Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2013
Posts: 809
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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Got my Syncro back with the new Mansi FI kit. Eion's in Seattle did the install. They had the van for a month. There was a big list of other things needed to be done besides the FI kit. Mansi had visited the shop a while back and sold Eion on the kit. He installed it on an employee van. There were issues with the system, but that was mainly because of the motor being worn out and tired. My motor was rebuilt with good compression numbers and was an excellent candidate for the swap. Once installed, it had to be dialed in. There were hick-ups in the system. Eion couldn't get it to run right. He was on speed dial with Mansi troubleshooting the problem. Data was collected with each trip with the van and sent to Mansi to analyze. Apparently, when they rebuilt my motor years ago, they did some stuff that wasn't the usual standard procedure. The data collected was able to pinpoint the differences with my motor and a regular 2.1 WBX and program changes were made to suit just my engine. I think the great thing about the kit is that changes can be made immediately to remedy tuning problems. There were two parts of the kit that were faulty, but Mansi sent out replacements immediately. Eion says that he's ordering a few more FI kits and maybe one of Mansi's turbo kits. I want a test drive when that gets installed.
So.... how does it drive? I've only had it for half a day and I have to say there is a noticeable difference. It is VERY rev happy. Throttle response is much quicker. The motor really wants to get up and go. I'm in and out of 1st gear much quicker because of the faster starts. There is a noticeable boost while increasing speed in 3rd. The only thing that might need attention in the future is that if the motor is cold, it idles at a higher rpm and then works its way down to 1,000rpm once it gets warmed up.
The test - there is a hill in my city that I hate to drive up. Check it out on Google streetview:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3866066,-122.22951...384!8i8192
I don't know the grade of this steep hill, but my Syncro struggles to get up it. Even with a run-up at 50mph at the bottom, I find myself in 2nd gear a little past the halfway point and then I'm grinding it out until I crest the hill. Today, I had a run at it. 3rd gear to almost the top. Now I can use this road and not have to drive over to another street to get to the top. I'll report later after a few weeks playing with the van.
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valvecovergasket
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 1492
Location: pnw
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 8:38 am Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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| RainierSyncro wrote: |
The only thing that might need attention in the future is that if the motor is cold, it idles at a higher rpm and then works its way down to 1,000rpm once it gets warmed up.
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my hunch selling these as one-size-fits-most is that i would expect to need some idle tuning massaging on most installs as there will be some engine to engine variability. itd be interesting to compare the closed loop idle tunes between the various setups to see how they stack up.
but those are great results - nothing like being able to datalog and easily make changes to fit your exact setup 
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marcotheturbosteamengine
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 265
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 8:58 am Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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| RainierSyncro wrote: |
Got my Syncro back with the new Mansi FI kit. Eion's in Seattle did the install. They had the van for a month. There was a big list of other things needed to be done besides the FI kit. Mansi had visited the shop a while back and sold Eion on the kit. He installed it on an employee van. There were issues with the system, but that was mainly because of the motor being worn out and tired. My motor was rebuilt with good compression numbers and was an excellent candidate for the swap. Once installed, it had to be dialed in. There were hick-ups in the system. Eion couldn't get it to run right. He was on speed dial with Mansi troubleshooting the problem. Data was collected with each trip with the van and sent to Mansi to analyze. Apparently, when they rebuilt my motor years ago, they did some stuff that wasn't the usual standard procedure. The data collected was able to pinpoint the differences with my motor and a regular 2.1 WBX and program changes were made to suit just my engine. I think the great thing about the kit is that changes can be made immediately to remedy tuning problems. There were two parts of the kit that were faulty, but Mansi sent out replacements immediately. Eion says that he's ordering a few more FI kits and maybe one of Mansi's turbo kits. I want a test drive when that gets installed.
So.... how does it drive? I've only had it for half a day and I have to say there is a noticeable difference. It is VERY rev happy. Throttle response is much quicker. The motor really wants to get up and go. I'm in and out of 1st gear much quicker because of the faster starts. There is a noticeable boost while increasing speed in 3rd. The only thing that might need attention in the future is that if the motor is cold, it idles at a higher rpm and then works its way down to 1,000rpm once it gets warmed up.
The test - there is a hill in my city that I hate to drive up. Check it out on Google streetview:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3866066,-122.22951...384!8i8192
I don't know the grade of this steep hill, but my Syncro struggles to get up it. Even with a run-up at 50mph at the bottom, I find myself in 2nd gear a little past the halfway point and then I'm grinding it out until I crest the hill. Today, I had a run at it. 3rd gear to almost the top. Now I can use this road and not have to drive over to another street to get to the top. I'll report later after a few weeks playing with the van.
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Thats great news! Yes your engine has been built differently, the standard VE table works fantastic for 90% of waterboxers, but it looks like whoever built yours put a very small camshaft in there, probably a hydro Type1 beetle cam as you can buy these of the shelf. Your engine has huge vacuum at Idle, more than double the standard waterboxer, and who knows what pistons size, compression etc etc, but its not a problem as we can datalog and make it work great, the cold start high Idle your referring to is actually a feature like modern cars have now, it runs a higher idle on low engine temperatures and gradually drops down once the engine is at temperature.
Thanks for your input and your impartial real world experience. |
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marcotheturbosteamengine
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 265
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:13 am Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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| valvecovergasket wrote: |
| RainierSyncro wrote: |
The only thing that might need attention in the future is that if the motor is cold, it idles at a higher rpm and then works its way down to 1,000rpm once it gets warmed up.
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my hunch selling these as one-size-fits-most is that i would expect to need some idle tuning massaging on most installs as there will be some engine to engine variability. itd be interesting to compare the closed loop idle tunes between the various setups to see how they stack up.
but those are great results - nothing like being able to datalog and easily make changes to fit your exact setup |
Yeah im running full close loop idle control, and full PID close loop lambda. And most of the time it can adapt accordingly to all the different waterboxer combinations. But now and again, I’ve only had 2 engines where Idle vacuum sit down in the 20kpa range!!, and as it’s only 4 cylinders the pulses are very strong through the exhaust on idle and causes havoc with the wideband lambda. As I use the Spartan2 lambda controller. It’s soo fast it picks up every pulse and changes the fueling very fast which in turn makes the engine swing slightly rpm wise, and then the close loop idle valve sees this slight rpm oscillation and tries to compensate for it, so Ive basically got to slow the reactions down. But as you know it can be done just takes a little bit of effort. |
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valvecovergasket
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 1492
Location: pnw
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:57 am Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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How many ignition events per WBO2 step are your setups running?
And what time step for the idle control?
I've found on setups that have the O2 close to a collector with an uneven length it can do really wonky stuff at idle needing to be slowed down a fair bit. The O2 authority table in MS3 also helps a ton with this.
The micro/MS2 closed loop idle logic is light years ahead of the MS1 stuff  but the MS3 is much more daily driver friendly in my experience
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livethevanlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2015
Posts: 204
Location: La Paz, Baja California Sur
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 7:27 am Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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Yesterday afternoon I finished my first install of the Mansispeed EFI system. For starters, I found the installation instructions super easy to follow. The hardest parts of the install for me, was removing the crank pulley, the one on this van was torqued to 375ft lbs, and wrestling with a rusty 02 sensor for a few hours. Other than that, it actually fired up for me on the first try, which left me a bit surprised and proud. I needed to adjust the idle right away as it would die after giving it gas and trying to return to idle, and per Marcos instructions I need to go into Tuner Studio this morning and tweak some of the settings in there for the idle control. I plan to do my first test drive on Monday. Heres a video of the first start, and a brief overview while it was idling. First impressions are great, although I can't yet speak to the performance. This install is on a GW 2.5 (yep) with 30k on it (I think, customers Van).
First Start
https://youtu.be/tIBM3DhBYdg
Overview while running
https://youtu.be/SNY3GeNEaLw
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1991 Syncro Triple Knob Westfalia "Miki" 2.2WBX
1992 Syncro Triple Knob Tintop "Schnitzel" 1.9AAZ
1990 Syncro Rear Locker Doka Subi 2.2
1974 VW Thing 1835cc
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D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 9:19 am Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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| livethevanlife wrote: |
Yesterday afternoon I finished my first install of the Mansispeed EFI system. For starters, I found the installation instructions super easy to follow. The hardest parts of the install for me, was removing the crank pulley, the one on this van was torqued to 375ft lbs, and wrestling with a rusty 02 sensor for a few hours. Other than that, it actually fired up for me on the first try, which left me a bit surprised and proud. I needed to adjust the idle right away as it would die after giving it gas and trying to return to idle, and per Marcos instructions I need to go into Tuner Studio this morning and tweak some of the settings in there for the idle control. I plan to do my first test drive on Monday. Heres a video of the first start, and a brief overview while it was idling. First impressions are great, although I can't yet speak to the performance. This install is on a GW 2.5 (yep) with 30k on it (I think, customers Van).
First Start
https://youtu.be/tIBM3DhBYdg
Overview while running
https://youtu.be/SNY3GeNEaLw |
Sounds like a very successful first installation. Nice job and thanks for sharing it with us. Marco's EFI system is sounding better and better with each report I hear of it! Looking forward to hearing how the van performs. |
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buspor63
Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2005
Posts: 1179
Location: Knoxville,TN Where America stops for gas
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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It's great to see this working so well on older, high mileage WBX engines. My question is, what if you re-built a WBX to make the most of it?
What would the recipe be? MS 1.35:1 rockers, injectors, ported heads?, Rocky Jennings 2.2 P/C's, stock/power/torque? cam and a RMW/10cent exhaust?
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livethevanlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2015
Posts: 204
Location: La Paz, Baja California Sur
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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Hey Everyone, quick update. Van is running, but has a misfire that we are working through. Marco has been great. Also a quick note, for those of you with recent Macs like me, M1 Macbook air, Tuner Studio is pretty much unusable. It constantly freezes and I have to force quit it. I went out this morning and bought a cheap used PC laptop to use with TunerStudio. Just so those of you looking to do this system know in advance. Not any reason not to do it, just boot up an old PC you have laying around or borrow a PC from a friend.
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1991 Syncro Triple Knob Westfalia "Miki" 2.2WBX
1992 Syncro Triple Knob Tintop "Schnitzel" 1.9AAZ
1990 Syncro Rear Locker Doka Subi 2.2
1974 VW Thing 1835cc
1989 VW Carat |
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Witless Joe
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 460
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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| RainierSyncro wrote: |
The test - there is a hill in my city that I hate to drive up. Check it out on Google streetview:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3866066,-122.22951...384!8i8192
I don't know the grade of this steep hill, but my Syncro struggles to get up it. Even with a run-up at 50mph at the bottom, I find myself in 2nd gear a little past the halfway point and then I'm grinding it out until I crest the hill. Today, I had a run at it. 3rd gear to almost the top. Now I can use this road and not have to drive over to another street to get to the top. I'll report later after a few weeks playing with the van. |
Just for the hell of it, I checked the elevation profile of that hill with Google Earth, and I think from the bottom to the top in that photo is about a 10.8% grade, rise over run. Much steeper than your photo indicates. Interstate highways are 7% or less. |
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Syncronoid
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2012
Posts: 1111
Location: Stanford, CA and Bend, OR
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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Can you elaborate on the “misfire”? 🙂
| livethevanlife wrote: |
| Hey Everyone, quick update. Van is running, but has a misfire that we are working through. Marco has been great. Also a quick note, for those of you with recent Macs like me, M1 Macbook air, Tuner Studio is pretty much unusable. It constantly freezes and I have to force quit it. I went out this morning and bought a cheap used PC laptop to use with TunerStudio. Just so those of you looking to do this system know in advance. Not any reason not to do it, just boot up an old PC you have laying around or borrow a PC from a friend. |
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livethevanlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2015
Posts: 204
Location: La Paz, Baja California Sur
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 7:38 am Post subject: Re: MansiSpeed EFI kit is a hit! |
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The misfire isnt relevant as it has nothing to do with the EFI system. Its fixed now. As stated Marco has been great througout. Now waiting on a new tune from Marco and some more testing.
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1991 Syncro Triple Knob Westfalia "Miki" 2.2WBX
1992 Syncro Triple Knob Tintop "Schnitzel" 1.9AAZ
1990 Syncro Rear Locker Doka Subi 2.2
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