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Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers.
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jcannon
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:17 pm    Post subject: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

I've had many early convertibles and have always done my own tops and welding. This purpose of this thread is to record what I've learned over 40 years and answer the questions I see repeatedly asked.

What I'll show applies primarily to oval vert, but the information also applies to the later "split" convertibles and "big widow" ones through early 1960. Essentially, the tops are the same. If you have the big "U" shaped wooden hoop bow that runs along the back of both rear quarter windows and across the top, and you have the chrome strip on the front header bow, this will apply to your car. Figure roughly 1951 to early 1960.

Technically speaking there are a few detail differences in the top frames. The frames with the big hoop bows are essentially the same regardless of year. There are some detailed changes which are not going to matter. You may or may not have side tension cables, assist straps, or the coat hooks. The bolt pattern for the front bow varies. These are details, but the basic frame is the same.

What is important is the three different sized rear windows. The split window -52, the oval window 53-57, and the bigger window from 58 on. You can put any of those into your car, but you can't change the rear window size after the top is installed. The roof bows are the same but the spacing you set the the bows to is determined by the rear window size. The top canvas will have a split in it above the rear window. The location of that split depends on the bow spacing, which depends on the window size. The same applies to the headliner, which mounts to the bows.

For example: If you have a '54 convertible with a '58 top frame it will work fine. However, if you have a '58 rear window for your '54 you need to use the 58-60 bow spacing, the 58-60 top, and the 58-60 headliner.

On the back parcel tray you may see two dents. Don't pop them out! They are clearance for the corners of the rear window when the top is folded down.

20 Years ago there was a supplier in Signal Hill CA who made bows, top covers, and headliners. Their parts fit very well. From what is stated above you should gather that the the headliner, bows, and top cover fit together. If the bows are not shaped properly it will be difficult to get a pre-made headliner and top to fit without wrinkles.

In the last ten years I've seen some errors in the way bows, top covers and headliners are labeled and made. I purchased a headliner labeled 58 and on and it did not fit a 58. Who makes what and makes it well has been in flux. There are not many 60 and earlier convertible getting re-topped which makes it hard for vendors to get good feedback. Availability of materials can be hit or miss. That doesn't help.

Over the course of time I'll add to the thread and show how to make the bows, how to make a headliner, how to make a top canvas, how to make a boot, and how to do the hair padding. This will be the last car I ever do and is my split/ribbed door oval non matching numbers car that burned in a forest fire 9 years ago. I've owned it for 30 years. It will make a good example for fixing every problem. I also currently own a '58 (Oct '57) where I made the bows, headliner, and hair padding.

Don't ask for patterns because I don't have any. I have a few samples of old bow parts and headliner pieces. The trick is to make them "to fit". You need some material and some chalk. This also applies to the carpet and the seat upholstery. You don't need patterns or old upholstery to copy.

Disclaimer: Take what I show you as suggestions. No one taught me an official method. Also, I view this as a hobby so it needs to be fun for me. I enjoyed the old days when a nice complete unrusted and mostly undamaged early oval convertible could be had for $3,000. My first one, a '54 was $350. One could go to a swap meet and find any needed parts cheaply. No one wanted 25 or 36 HP motors. 36ers were frequently free. I truly respect the people who restore these old VWs to perfection and love to see beautiful restorations.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

This is very timely for me and I will look forward to reading more of your insight.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

Popcorn watching with interest and Curiosity.. BulliBill you need to watch as well…help with your project
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jcannon
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

Materials:

For bows, wood is a good choice. Originals appear to be beech. Where I live beech is hard to come by. Maple an ash are good choices. Finding clear thick stock can be difficult and pricey. It's OK to glue several pieces together. Just use a water resistant glue. I use T-88 epoxy. You can go to the big box store and buy some nice looking 2x6s. It will work, but with all the labor you'll be putting in I'd suggest using better lumber. One thing that bit me once was tack holding. Now I pretest the lumber by driving in some tacks to make sure they will stay. Buy the wood a few months in advance and let it acclimate.

For headliners the stretch wool can be expensive and hard to come by. I found 100% wool grey "broadcloth". It was about $15 per yard and made a very niceoriginal looking head liner.

The padding is horsehair. I think the current equivalent is hogs hair or "coir". It can be found at vintage upholstery suppliers.

The base which the hair is sewn to is linen. Linen is made from flax. It does not like to stretch and it is very tough. I found it at a local fabric store and bought 2 bolts. Linen is not cotton, it is not wool, it is not rayon, it is not burlap, nor is it nylon. You really want to find linen. 100% linen. Sometimes it is there in vast quantities and sometimes it seems unfindable. Try and rip it. Good linen doesn't like to stretch or rip.

Thread for the hair.. Find linen or hemp. Get a guide on tying knots. I avoid synthetic materials as it seems harder to get knots to hold.

Tacks. The manual says brass to avoid rust stains. I don't plan on leaving the car out in the rain so brass may be optional.

Wood screws. The imperial spec is for screw heads to be 82 degrees. Metric are 90. Make sure any screws you buy fit the countersinks in the top frame AND they are flush. If not, turn them on a lathe and make them fit. Don't forget to drill pilot holes in the bows.

Canvas comes in Haartz or Mercedes. If you are sewing your own canvas be aware it is possible to buy matching edge binding that is much thinner. The cording along the body can be made by sewing a strip of canvas over a cord.

Leather. You didn't even know about this. Go to Tandy Leather and buy a bag of leather pieces. The leather is used for shimming, stopping squeaks, and making the chrome install tool.

For making bows I suggest learning to use a wood plane and a chisel. The key to using both tools is knowing how to sharpen them.

You will need to use a sewing machine, know how to tie real knots, use basic wood tools, use a lathe, and know how to weld. Most likely your frame will have a few broken rivets or need some rust repair.

Notice I have yet to post a picture. For me learning all of the above things is part of the fun. It's why I came to love the old convertibles. There is something therapeutic about doing a top and seeing how nice a job I can do. There is an art to getting a top smooth and wrinkle free. And no, you aren't supposed to see every rib and bow like it is a starving horse.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

In 40+ years I've owned a '52, '53, '54, '55, '58, 59, 60, and '61 Karmanns. At the time of the 2013 forest fire the ole convertible I owned is this one. It had a hard life but little rust. It was sidelined after a front ender. A PO had put it on a '54 pan. In doing so they tried to lift the body by the rear apron and destroyed the apron. Then they tried to lift it by the rear convertible seat support and destroyed that. The body front clip had been cut off so the body number is gone. I bought this 30 years ago so convertibles were not as valuable as today. There were not suppliers who made nice clip panels and support rails. There was no "Samba" site. Parts were found using the telephone and by going to shows. There are body pieces ranging from '51 to 59, cut up and jigsaw puzzled together. Other pieces are made by hammering them from flat stock. When you spot the extra hole above the tail light, is is because that was the closest fender I found, and I missed welding up the hole. For support rails, I made them by coping what was on the car. Mine are 2x the normal thickness by have the correct appearance. I learned to TIG weld on this car. It is a numberless "bastard" of mixed parts but I have had a lot of fun with it. I've also had original numbers matching early verts. This one has been more fun.

Regarding the fire. My wife and I went to work. The fire started. I happened to come home early. My wife could see a fire had started so she left work. Before she got home the roads had been closed. From my point of view, I came home at 1 PM to work from home. My wife called at 2PM to say there was a fire (What fire?) and she was coming. I went to the roof and could see smoke. The fire had not made the news, so I moved things away from the house just to be safe. Then a Deputy showed up and said "You need to leave, NOW!". The dog was already in the car. I threw some supplies in and left. The point is that most of the time you get some warning. Sometimes, there is none. My '58 nearly perfect single cab with 58,000 miles was destroyed, along with everything we had.

Over 3 days over 500 houses burned. Our house burned in the first hours of the fire.

This is the only picture of the car I have from before the fire:
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This is what happens afterward:

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Then you rent a backhoe and drag the car from the wreckage:

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You can see it is destroyed. There is nothing left but the steel. No 25HP engine, no top, no full crash box. The aluminum window frames melted. None of this is a problem. After the fire, I have no house, no shop, no tools, no toothbrush, no electricity, no water, and no neighborhood. Such is the nature of being near the start of one of these fires.

The vert body sat where you see it for about two years. I'm not looking for empathy. One learns what is important pretty quik.

Years after the fire I found a '64 chassis, no engine, in someones yard. So I bough that and dropped the body on it. That is as close as I'm going to get. There are more important things to care about.

The biggest problem is the vert body is horrible distorted. The whole thing has sagged. Look at the doors et al. There is no way to change a fender. The fenders and body sagged to to gether so they fit each other.

To straighten it enough to close the door I hired a guy with a torch. I told him to bring a rosebud which is a big heating tip. I drew some lines on the door sills and told him heat it here, till it is red, then using some well placed blocking bent and support rails somewhat straight.

If you are thinking that I could buy new channels and rails.... That won't work. Every panel is thinned and badly warped. The dashboard has sagged so there is less knee room.

Remember, its just a hobby. The goal is to A) Be able to drive it. (Done) and B) Install a working top.
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jcannon
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

It's time to start the top work.

First, got to the technical section and get the drawings for VW 707A and VW 707B. Use them to check the door opening dimensions. If these are not correct you will have a tough time adjusting the top frame. The guages can be made from wood and you can skip the features you aren't going to use.


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The 707A checks the distance from the pillar where the top frame bolts to the latch area on the windshield frame. This is off 19mm (3/4")!! That's never going to work!




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The 707 B checks hinge pillar and windshield frame angle. I've made an extension so it can check the side rail for straightness. You can't tell in the photo but there are two problems. The side rail is bent and the windshield frame angle to the door pillar is wrong.

The windshield frame is bent towards the rear of the car. I laid on the back seat with my feet placed on the upright part of the windshield frame, then pushed. Very hard. I could feel a bit of movement so rechecked with the 707B. It took three attempts to move it enough. Both the driver's and passenger sides needed to be bent. There was no way to do this and take a picture.





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I've clamped a straightedge to the reinforcement rail. Notice the bend. This needs to be fixed too.



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You can see fire damage to the top of the support rail. This won't help.



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Mark it. Drill out some spot welds, and cut out the damage. The cut out can be straightened and welded back in.



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To fix the reinforcement rail I cut two slots in it. Note that the upper cut out extended far enough so the two slots would be under it. this makes the rail much more flexible. In engineering terms it reduces the moment of inertia. There is a floor jack under the rail behind the cut. Jack up the car until the rail flexes back until it is straight. Be careful if you do this. I made the rails 20 years ago and they are twice as thick as normal. Use more care if they are normal rails. Some bouncing on the front end we needed to incite enough bending. Bend a bit more than necessary to account for spring back.



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Perfect. With the jack still in place, weld up the slots. Let the jack down, and recheck with the 707A.



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Excellent!



I'll straighten the cutout from the top of the rail and weld it back in. That will be later. I need replace my melted right angle air grinder and get some Roloc disks. Otherwise it will take to long to clean the parts enough for welding.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

I'm attempting to get photos which show how to straighten and align the top frame. My old camera, which did a great job at this, died several months ago. It's no longer made so I have a new and completely different camera. It is a good camera.... BUT! As people, we have begun to make things needlessly complicated. I cannot figure out how to turn on the flash. The manufacturer does not include the 184 page manual which is online and unusable on a cell phone or computer. Meanwhile, while trying to turn the flash on, I touched something and now the camera doesn't want to focus. Engineers have rammed so many menus, icons, buttons, and features onto the camera that I can't figure out the basic functions without sitting down and going through the manual page by page. This is so frustrating...... I am an engineer.

If any of you know people who design products and software, please give them the following suggestions. 1) The use of basic functionality should be obvious without needing to resort to the manual. 2) Kindly provide a copy of said manual. 3) Rather then enabling everything from the start, enable the basics. Allow the customer to turn on "extras" they want to use. I'll get it figured out a write a cheat sheet.


Meanwhile, the verbal part of the frame work. After 55 years, frames can be rusted, frozen, bent, and have broken rivets. These issues need to be addressed before the bows are installed.


1) Free up any frozen joints the same way as you would deal with a stuck bolt. Use penetrating oil and heat. In some places the several joints move at the same time. If a lot are frozen is can be hard. The trick is to get each joint to move a tiny amount. Keep working at them, and when they all move a tiny bit go back and get each one to move a little bit more. Keep doing this until the frame frees up. If you are missing hinge pins or rivets nails and bolts will work for now.

2) At some point you will need the main hoop and header bows to help stabilize the frame. Don't install any new bows yet. I bolt on a 2x4 fro a "header" and use a piece of U shaped plywood to stand in for the main hoop. Do this whether the frame is mounted to the car or on the bench.

If you have a decent bench you can make a wood mount to emulate the car body. It's much easier to work on the frame mounted to a bench than to keep climbing on the body.

3) Fix any rust. Make or graft in pieces the same way you would do on the body.

4) If you are missing hinge pins or rivets I'm not aware of any sources. They are all pretty simple and can be turned on a lathe. You may find a few rivet holes that are wallowed out. Ream out the holes and make oversized rivets. You don't need a big press to reinstall rivets. Make up a die to hold the head, back that up on an anvil or vice, and stake the rivet in with a punch. You can make a lot of small hits around the edge instead of one big one in the center. You will need a helper for this. Some hinge pins have cotter keys and some are staked in. It may help to leave them loose until you are sure the frame is straight.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

Straightening and alignment. Mount the frame on the body.

Let's assume you don't have the original header bow. The one you've bought has no holes, and if it does, you aren't sure if the holes are in the correct location. Maybey you are going to make a header bow. How does the header fit? You will use a 2x4 or other wood for a temporary bow. You may need to cut an arc in the 2x4 to clear the windshield frame.



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On the top frame, draw a line through the existing rubber window seal holes. "A" points to the line. This line is extra thick so it can be seen. Do both sides.




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Do the same on the windshield pillar, as marked with "B". Again, do both sides.





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Raise the top frame, and line up the two marks. Screw the top frame to temporary bow. Clamp that side so the lines remain aligned, and do the other side. Don't worry about how deep the latches are engaged. It is nice if you can latch them, but perfect depth comes later.




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Look at this latch. See how it doesn't look like it is aligned with the catch. It appears a prior owner has drilled and tapped new latch holes. This needs to be fixed.



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Take a straight edge and place it on the bottom of sides of the frame. Both sides should sit nice and flat against the straight edge. If not, there is some bending to do.



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Here is one way to twist the frame members. The clamps in the photo are for illustration. Place wood blocks between the jaws and the frame so you don't do more damage. Also, before you make the header end straight check the frame members in several places to determine where the damage is.

This is a round robin kind of operation. If your frame is bent there are a few places to look.




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Place the straight edge along the hinges. These are over the side windows close to the gap. They need to be in line with each other horizontally and vertically. Imagine the pins are out. You should be able to look through the pin hole on the passenger side hinge and it should line up perfectly with the hinge pin hole on the drivers side. It is like a door in you house. If the hinges are not aligned the door will bind.

At first glance the top frame looks very complicated and hard to grasp, especially if it is bent. Here is something else to look for.


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The bar between A and B needs to be parallel to the identical bar on the other side. Measure from A (passenger side) to A (driver side) and from B (passenger side) to B (driver side). You should get the same number.



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The same goes for this bar. This is very important. Notice that the B distance is determined by where the frame is attached to the main hoop bow. This is why I said make a temporary bow from plywood. If you've already mounted the main hoop bow bow and this dimension is off, it is difficult to fix. Also, the dimensions for this bar is not the same at for the first one.






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Here is a third bar. The passenger side and drivers side should be parallel.


Once you've got a an estimate of the "natural" spacing of the bar at the main hoop bow, put a screw or two in (the temporary one). Before you bend anything, play with the top. When the top frame is folded down the hinges should still be aligned and the bars parallel. The same goes for any position between up and down.

If everything measures fine you are ready to install bows. If there is bending to, take some time to think about it, figure out what is bent and straighten it.

On frames I've seen that are bent, what usually has happened is some of the joints froze and someone forced it. Maybe someone sat on the roof or rode on the top when it was down. Most of these cars went through a period where they had little value so the owners didn't care. If you need to straighten the top frame it helps if you can figure out how it became damaged. Straightening is doing the damage in reverse. If you've got major damage fix a little here, a little there, then come back and do a little more to the first area. It is very similar to bumping a dent from a fender.

When you think you are done sight across the car and make sure the top frame looks symmetric. Do the same looking from front to back.

The first metal bow behind the header bow has a way of getting bent. If so, sight from the front of the car and bend it to a reasonable shape. You can come back and fine tune it after the wood bows are installed.

One more trick is to install the side windows and work back and forth between their alignment and the gap the top frame has along the top of the windows. Be warned. When the top is in stalled it pulls on the top frame and the frame arches up a bit. You can simulate some of the arching by pulling the header bow backwards with a strap. The important thing is to be sure there are no kinks in the top frame side members.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

To fix the crooked latches, I removed the top latches and temporary bow, then flap wheeled both sides of latch mount area to find the original latch hole locations. These latches don't look like they've been moved!




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Here is a picture of an October'57 early big window. It is hard to tell but the latch sits at the same angle as the problem latch. After some rummaging through a parts file....



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Here is the header side of the latch on the car.




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Here is the same view of a top frame piece from a '55.


The parts manual shows them having the same part number. I made some templates and the only differences are the hole locations.

Perhaps VW sold the spare without holes, and left it to the repairman to drill them. The spot welded latch hole reinforcement is the same shape on both, but the location is different. A small amount of steel work to fix.

What changed on the windshield frame between oval and early big window convertibles? The only thing I see, now that I know what to look for, is the arch of the top of the windshield, in the center, is 1/2 to 5/8 of and inch higher. That crown is reflected in the header bow. It's not much of a change, but enough to say "Larger windshield" The windshield might be a bid wider. I didn't look.

If someone knows, I'd like to know if the top profile of the early big window header box is the same as the oval. The Oct '57 car has an aftermarket header bow.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

This is a split body with a after 55 roofframe.
Also with pre body 1250 hooks in front.
Will buy them!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

Beeltekey:

The fire did a lot of damage to the ‘54 or early ‘55 roof frame that came with the car. I had an extra frame, either ‘58 or 59, which was also burned. The frame on the car is a mixture of the best parts from both. Clearly, the pieces that connect to the header Bow and latches came from the later frame. I subsequently bought a frozen and bent ‘55 frame (it is “iris”) and am pretty sure the metal bow by the rear window is from that frame. It is a kluge of parts but they are functionally the same. I have enough parts to make a frame with nothing newer than ‘55. It would be a lot of work (too much) to straighten/repair some of them.

For the latch mounting I made a jig to measure the front mounting plates. Drilling new latch holes is not going to work (not enough room) so I’m milling some front mounting pieces. I will cut off the latch area and weld the new pieces on. Since I’m making the header bow the bolt positions can be unique to this car.

I do not know what “pre body 1250 hooks” are. Will you clarify? They look correct but admit something seems a bit off.

Also, are you aware of a source in Europe for good quality wood bows which fit properly? If so, would you post it here?. When the gentleman who I used to buy bows from passed on I could not find a quality source for ‘60 and earlier bows. It would be nice to point readers towards good quality early bows. The bows I bought were not worth using.

I can make bows and I put in the finger joints like the original bows had. I will show how to do it without special tools. It’s not hard to do but it’s a bit of a lost art. Readers: Don’t ask. I won’t make a bow or sew a headliner for anyone. VWs are a hobby only.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:59 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

jcannon wrote:
Beeltekey:

The fire did a lot of damage to the ‘54 or early ‘55 roof frame that came with the car. I had an extra frame, either ‘58 or 59, which was also burned. The frame on the car is a mixture of the best parts from both. Clearly, the pieces that connect to the header Bow and latches came from the later frame. I subsequently bought a frozen and bent ‘55 frame (it is “iris”) and am pretty sure the metal bow by the rear window is from that frame. It is a kluge of parts but they are functionally the same. I have enough parts to make a frame with nothing newer than ‘55. It would be a lot of work (too much) to straighten/repair some of them.

For the latch mounting I made a jig to measure the front mounting plates. Drilling new latch holes is not going to work (not enough room) so I’m milling some front mounting pieces. I will cut off the latch area and weld the new pieces on. Since I’m making the header bow the bolt positions can be unique to this car.

I do not know what “pre body 1250 hooks” are. Will you clarify? They look correct but admit something seems a bit off.

Also, are you aware of a source in Europe for good quality wood bows which fit properly? If so, would you post it here?. When the gentleman who I used to buy bows from passed on I could not find a quality source for ‘60 and earlier bows. It would be nice to point readers towards good quality early bows. The bows I bought were not worth using.

I can make bows and I put in the finger joints like the original bows had. I will show how to do it without special tools. It’s not hard to do but it’s a bit of a lost art. Readers: Don’t ask. I won’t make a bow or sew a headliner for anyone. VWs are a hobby only.

Check my facebookside and look what i do with my bows. You can contact me by messenger.
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jcannon
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

On with straightening the top frame. A few years ago I did quite a bit of work to get to frame where it is, but further examination showed it could be better.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is a shot of straightening an unwanted bend. Using a few strategically placed blocks and a clamp will fix this one. Cinch up the clamp until you think something moved. Loosen it, recheck, and bend a little more. Sneak up on it. Find a twist, fix that, and keep working round and round until the frame is as correct as it's going to be. An important dimension: It is 295mm from the top of the door (if they are straight) to the bottom of the frame. This is in the Split Karmann docs in the technical section. It says "Split" but has info ovals verts too. You will find some pages state "after body 10,000" which is when the vent windows start.

With the frame as straight as it is going to get, its time to fix the "latches are off" issue. When I say latch I meant the part with the mechanism which is attached to the top frame. "Catch" is the piece mounted to the windscreen. Like a gate....



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After some inaccurate measurements, I settled on this wooden jig. The angle is 30 degrees, assuming a level top frame and a 30 degree windshield frame angle.




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Clamp the jig to the frame end and trace it. The jig registers to the bottom and side of the frame side member.



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Trace the correct oval piece and the one on the car. The issue is apparent. GRRRRRR. Better yet, there is not really enough material at the bottom of the header plate to drill new bottom latch holes. Before changing this, I clamped a latch in the new position and yes, it is correct.

This will require new frame header pieces, or to cut the end off and splice on a new part.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Using measurements from the jig, make a patch for the end. I have a mill and a 1/4" piece of steel so this was the fastest way to go. There are no measurements to give. I positioned and threaded one hole then matched punched the others to the latch. This is a manual mill. To get the curve draw a line and chew off some metal with the mill, then file up to the line.

To cut the 1/4" steel blanks I used a hacksaw. Hacksaws really do work. Alll you need is a decent hacksaw frame and a quality blade. It you want nice threaded holes use a drill press to hold the tap. Turn it by hand. Do unplug it befor moving the belts by hand. Using a tap handle works, but its almost impossible to not apply a bit of side force. This wallows out the hole a bit. For the top latches you want the best threaded holes you can make.

One other tip. Note that both plates are clamped in the vice. A part needs to be clamped in the center of the vice for it to hold well. That is the bane of milling. The part is almost done and gets ripped from the vice, chewing it up. If you clamp at the edge, the vice will rack a small amount and won't grip will. The finished part on the right is there to balance the force on the vice.

I'll do the welding in a few days.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

With the top frame and body as straight as there are going to get, its time to cut some wood.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If you are lucky, you have a few chunks of old bows. These are handy and will tell a lot about how they are made and how the top was applied.



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In this view you can see some canvas remains. Remnants are overlapped which tells the order in which top components were nailed. I like to leave any remnants attached. Photos aren't quite the same.



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Viewed this way you can see the remains of a finger joint. There are 6 or 8 of these joints and they are frequently omitted in replacement bows. We are going to make them. This type of finger joint is used because it is very strong. It has a lot of glue surface area and makes the best use of the grain in the wood.

Imagine the factory where they will be making several hundred thousand of these joints. They can afford special cutters, jigs, and dedicated machines. To make the necessary 6 or 8 finger joints by hand is not as difficult as it looks. In the factory "Rrrrrrroouuu" and its done. We need to spend a bit more time without all the tools. A bit more may be an understatement.
I'm going to make a straight joint modeled on the factory joint. I found some kind of fir laying around. That will work.



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First we need to mark it out. The joint is 1-3/4" deep with 1/2" between the points. Use a machinist square and ty to be accurate. Use a knife to make the lines. This is better than pencil for accuracy. You can make a template and trace it. An exactingly perfect copy of the original joint is not required.

The sample joint will be straight. That is, the two pieces are parallel. On the bows there are no straight finger joints. Or are there? All of the joints are identical to this sample. They end of the bow piece may be cut at an angle but the fingers are the same. It may take some time to wrap your mind around this.

You've marked it out? Did you mark the back too? Then you need to mark the end so all the surfaces have cut lines. Next, look at the pieces and pencil in the areas that will be removed. If you don't pencil them in it will be confusing. Also, on the side that is up, on each side of the joint, put an "A" so you know how it is supposed to be assembled. You can use "B" on the back.



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Saw out the waste. Stay as close as you can to the lines without going over. Yes, you can use a bandsaw. The saw I'm using is not the handsaw I would normally use. I'm using it because it cost me $5 at an estate sale. The point is you don't need expensive tools to do this. Be patient and attentive.



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Keep working at it. Do both pieces.



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This is the secret. See how the saw is diagonal? First, saw a small indent across the top. As you saw, bias the cut towards the front. The front should cut all the way to the bottom before making any progress on the back. While you are cutting, don't use force. Let the saw float in the cut. As you deepen the cut on the backside the saw will do the work of following the line. It will cut straight for you -- if you let it.

Obviously, you aren't using a dull, rusty, and bent saw. If it is bent, don't buy it. Clean off the rust. Use a triangular file to sharpen it.

Now fit the parts together. Unless you are a wood maven the joint won't fit right without touch up. Sorry, I forgot the photo, but the best way to touch up the joint cuts is to stick the joint together and look through it. Put a light behind it if it helps. You will see the interference. mAt first, if it goes together 2/3rds of the way you've done well. Use a file, chisel, or whatever works to remove interfering material. My favorite is to use the saw. Press the side of the saw blade against the high spot and use the teeth like a file. Again, the saw's plate will help keep things flat.



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Here is the practice joint. It does not need to be perfect. Close is close enough. Don't expect glue to make up for butchery.

If you can get this far you should be able to make all the bows. Expect a learning curve if this is the first time you've used a hand saw. For encouragement, I purchased enough beech to make tall the bows. It came to $99.80, retail, including tax. Some of the savings will buy you a saw, a hand plane, and a chisel.

More likely than not your first joint will look terrible. You are way ahead of the people who only read about it. Think about it then try again.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

Popcorn

Enjoying the lessons, admiring the tenacity an craftsmanship…

Thomas
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

This thread is FANTASTIC! Thank you "jcannon" for your talent and desire to document the intricacies of repairing, testing, installing and perfecting a Oval era Kabriolett roof assembly on an early Kabriolett!.

My next big project is fully restoring and then installing a roof onto my Jan 1957 Oval Beetle Kabriolett. I bought this Kab way back in 1993 completely disassembled and stored away by the PO, so I have never seen it assembled or running. I luckily have two roof frames to choose from (one bare frame and latches restored by Chuck back in 1993, and another used swap meet find). And I recently bought all new wood bows, some top fasteners and all rubber seals from Chuck.

I and others who may have never attempted these important procedures really appreciate that you started this thread to share your fit and finish tips and knowledge on early Beetle convertible top issues and installation! I'll be riveted to this thread for more info and tips! And I'm sure that we will all chime in Thanks for the great photo documentation and labeling to help it all make more sense.

Bill Bowman

p.s. So sorry to hear of the loss of your home and property in the fire!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

First, thanks to those who expressed their interest.

Look at this picture and compare it to the other finger joints.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This bow is under the rear window on an Oct '57 car. Notice the fingers are not pointy like in the example. Why? I think the are the same. This is cut with a newer tool. I want to leave it there but someone it going to want to know how the same toll makes both joints. Tools like this are resharpened, not replaced. They get resharpened a lot. Each sharpening changes the dimensions of the tool. So.... The cutting face is the shape of the fingers. Behind the face, the tool is tapered or else it rubs in the cut. Sharpening is done by grinding the cutting face. Because of the taper, the face gets smaller with time.

Whether your joint looks like the above joint or is pointy won't matter. Make whichever one is easiest with the tools you have.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

On the header bow there are several notches. What are they for?



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The most obvious are the recesses where the header bow attaches to the frame. They can be a little oversize. The depth is important so the face of the plates on the frame is flush with the wood where arrow B is taped. The deeper recess is for the plate with the latch screw threads. This recess can be a bit deeper than needed. If the screws for your latches are long enough go through the frame plate and then some, they will hit the wood of the header bow. I cut the deep recess so there are a few mm to spare. You may think you can attach the latches and file the screws flush. It is inadvisable. There will be a layer of top fabric and two layers of headliner between the latch and its plate. The screw length needs to account for this.

Be aware of this when you put the latches on. If the latch screws encounter resistance before they are tight, more force is not the answer. The screws may have struck the bow.



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This recess goes the entire length of the bow. It should be deep enough for three layers. 1) The layer of headliner material that is under the latches and handles to cover the inside of the header bow. 2) The headliner itself. 3) The support material for the top pad.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

There are two of these notches. They are for the seams in the top cover. Providing seam clearance helps prevent lumps on the top cover.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Two of these are for the headliner seams. Some replacement bows omit these.


Earlier in the thread I indicated the different parts of the top need to work together.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is an example of parts sold for the same year span car that don't go together properly. You are looking at a canvas "oval" top cover. On it is laid an original ~55 header bow and a replacement bow for the same. Everything is centered .

Note the recesses for the top cover seams on the replacement bow don't match the original bow. Note how the replacement top cover doesn't match either the original or the replacement bow. See the dashes on the masking tape? Those mark the seam location on yet another cover.

If you are purchasing components it helps to know exactly how the top is assembled, buy the parts upfront, and check them.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

The basic top install instructions are in the 1952-1957 Bentley, Section A, beginning at 11-3.

It starts with covering the front header. On 11-4, step 9, it talks about using a cardboard strip. The verbiage combined with the low quality illustration in my Bentley make it nearly impossible to grasp what they are describing. If you are having this issue, here is a cross section:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Those who have upholstered furniture have seen this technique before. With the top closed, the bottom edge of the cardboard follows above the curve of the windscreen frame. That edge needs to be straight (OK, curved) and follow the windscreen frame evenly. When the headliner material is pulled back over the cardboard strip it forms the edge of the headliner you see over the windshield frame. If your cardboard has a wavy edge so will the edge of the headliner.

If the Bentley was unclear, look at it now. Where the A dimension is given as 80mm, a real bow measured 74mm. Since it may have shrunk, I'm assuming it is 75mm. The bow is an even 75 mm across the entire windscreen.

Thus, the cardboard overhangs the wood by 5mm. If your bow is incorrect, say it's 60mm use 65 instead of 80 for "A".
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible top know how. Make bows, headliners and top covers. Reply with quote

Awesome Cool
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