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Mrorangecrush77 Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022 Posts: 119 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:24 pm Post subject: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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I have a 1970’s 1835 (originally 1600) that I am attempting to stuff into a dune buggy, the title for the buggy states it is a 1967 however it seems that the Trans/starter are both 6V, is there a way I can put a 4 dowel flywheel onto my 8 dowel crank? I have the original flywheel for the buggy (motor was locked so I pulled it apart and purchased this 1835) and it’s a 109 tooth. Is it possible to hook up the 1835 to the swing axle?!?!? I’m going in circles finding ways to get it to fit! |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76938 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Remove 4 of the dowels. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Not if you are trying to put a 12v flywheel onto a 6v crank.
Just clearance the 6v bellhousing and and use the later engine as is. Use a 12v starter. |
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Mrorangecrush77 Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022 Posts: 119 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:10 am Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Thank you for your reply’s, I pulled 4 of the dowel pins and the pins I pulled fit perfectly in my 6v flywheel, I attempted to put my 6V flywheel onto the crank and it looks like 3 of the 4 dowel pins start to slide into their respective housing, however it seems as if 1 pin out of the 4 won’t go on. is there a better way to pull pins? I attempted to pull the remaining 4 pins and had no luck.
In regards to the clearancing of the transmission, how might I even go about doing such? I am somewhat of a Novice when it comes to putting in engines and so I’m not sure how to make sure it’ll work, I assume ill need to get a 12V starter and that’s it? If anybodys got any more ideas/links to parts please feel free to send them over! |
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3853 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:40 am Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
In regards to the clearancing of the transmission, how might I even go about doing such? |
From the frequently asked questions thread at the top of this forum, which is under Announcements and Stickys...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6611413#6611413 |
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Mrorangecrush77 Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022 Posts: 119 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:39 am Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Pruneman99 wrote: |
Not if you are trying to put a 12v flywheel onto a 6v crank.
Just clearance the 6v bellhousing and and use the later engine as is. Use a 12v starter. |
To clarify, I am wanting to put a 6V flywheel onto a 12V crank |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:50 am Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
Pruneman99 wrote: |
Not if you are trying to put a 12v flywheel onto a 6v crank.
Just clearance the 6v bellhousing and and use the later engine as is. Use a 12v starter. |
To clarify, I am wanting to put a 6V flywheel onto a 12V crank |
Oh sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were doing the reverse. A 6V flywheel will go on a 12V crank. |
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rcooled Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008 Posts: 2506 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
it looks like 3 of the 4 dowel pins start to slide into their respective housing, however it seems as if 1 pin out of the 4 won’t go on.
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The pins/holes are not all equally spaced on 8-dowel cranks & flywheels. This is done so that the flywheel can be indexed to the crank in one specific way only, and then be balanced as an assembly. Then, if the parts are ever separated and rejoined, the balance is always maintained.
There's one pin/hole that'll be offset a little bit from the rest of the group...this is standard practice and is known as the SPG pattern. That one offset pin/hole can be hard to notice unless you look pretty close. This offset pin needs to be removed from the 8-dowel crank, along with 3 others, to fit a 4-dowel flywheel. _________________ '63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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Mrorangecrush77 Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022 Posts: 119 Location: Utah
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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rcooled wrote: |
Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
it looks like 3 of the 4 dowel pins start to slide into their respective housing, however it seems as if 1 pin out of the 4 won’t go on.
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The pins/holes are not all equally spaced on 8-dowel cranks & flywheels. This is done so that the flywheel can be indexed to the crank in one specific way only, and then be balanced as an assembly. Then, if the parts are ever separated and rejoined, the balance is always maintained.
There's one pin/hole that'll be offset a little bit from the rest of the group...this is standard practice and is known as the SPG pattern. That one offset pin/hole can be hard to notice unless you look pretty close. This offset pin needs to be removed from the 8-dowel crank, along with 3 others, to fit a 4-dowel flywheel. |
Do you have any recommendations as how to remove the dowel pins, I was able to remove 4 and now having issues getting the others out. I used vice grips with a rag and it pulled the 4 just fine, I’m not really interested/able to afford a brand new tool (as much as I’d like to add to my collection). Any recommendations??? |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Pulling dowels that are properly installed is nary impossible without destroying the dowels.
Remind us, why just not use the later flywheel on the later engine? I'm just not understanding I guess. |
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rcooled Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008 Posts: 2506 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
Any recommendations??? |
If you're able to, take the motor to a machine shop and let them handle it.
BTW...does the buggy run 6V or 12V electrics?
Pruneman99 wrote: |
Remind us, why just not use the later flywheel on the later engine? |
He'll also need a 12V starter & adapter bushing to go that route. More expense...he already has the 6V flywheel. _________________ '63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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Mrorangecrush77 Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022 Posts: 119 Location: Utah
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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rcooled wrote: |
Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
Any recommendations??? |
If you're able to, take the motor to a machine shop and let them handle it.
BTW...does the buggy run 6V or 12V electrics?
Pruneman99 wrote: |
Remind us, why just not use the later flywheel on the later engine? |
He'll also need a 12V starter & adapter bushing to go that route. More expense...he already has the 6V flywheel. |
Precisely! The buggy is setup in 12v electrically speaking with the exception of the starter/trans, my guess is the previous owner blew a transmission (I do know that the previous owner threw a rod on his 2180 he somehow stuffed in it.) the reason I haven’t really considered the idea of a 12V swap is that I have a 6v flywheel in hand. Rather than having to purchase another starter/grinding etc etc (I am still open to the possibility) I felt it might be easier to just swap out flywheels but at this point I’m honestly wondering what is the best/most utilized option? I’d be happy to spend the money on the 12v starter/bushing if I could just get more information than “just grind it out ” that I’ve seen on other forums. |
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Mrorangecrush77 Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022 Posts: 119 Location: Utah
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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rcooled wrote: |
Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
Any recommendations??? |
If you're able to, take the motor to a machine shop and let them handle it.
BTW...does the buggy run 6V or 12V electrics?
Pruneman99 wrote: |
Remind us, why just not use the later flywheel on the later engine? |
He'll also need a 12V starter & adapter bushing to go that route. More expense...he already has the 6V flywheel. |
I’m absolutely able to take the motor to a shop, any idea on what they’d run me on the pin removal?? |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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You only need to clearance the bellhousing a little bit. Starters are not that expensive. If you get an autostick, you don't need to fool with that stupid starter bushing. I got one at Autozone years ago. Never a problem.
Also, you can use a 1600 clutch that will give you the correct clamping force. You may end up driving through the smaller 6v clutch. Just use a pressure plate WITH the centering ring.
The rest of the buggy is 12v already. You can run a 6v starter on 12v, but the bendix will slam into the flywheel. It can cause damage over time. Using the 12v starter, this goes away.
Also, you won't have a Frankenstein setup.
I see more downside to what your trying to do than just using the 12v setup complete as a unit.
Just my .04c (inflation and all) |
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Mrorangecrush77 Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022 Posts: 119 Location: Utah
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Pruneman99 wrote: |
You only need to clearance the bellhousing a little bit. Starters are not that expensive. If you get an autostick, you don't need to fool with that stupid starter bushing. I got one at Autozone years ago. Never a problem.
Also, you can use a 1600 clutch that will give you the correct clamping force. You may end up driving through the smaller 6v clutch. Just use a pressure plate WITH the centering ring.
The rest of the buggy is 12v already. You can run a 6v starter on 12v, but the bendix will slam into the flywheel. It can cause damage over time. Using the 12v starter, this goes away.
Also, you won't have a Frankenstein setup.
I see more downside to what your trying to do than just using the 12v setup complete as a unit.
Just my .04c (inflation and all) |
I like where you’re going and you’ve peaked my interest….what specific areas do I have to grind out? Is there a kit where I can get everything to swap? Since the buggy is a 67’ I’d feel it would be fitting to bring it back to 12v. However I’d need more information before I pursue it further. Any ideas on if there is even a 12v kit out there? |
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Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3685 Location: Eastern WA
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Way less involved to clearance the bell housing and change the starter if th car is already 12volt, plus you'll have a bigger clutch. Make sure you have a collared pressure plate to match the TO bearing. If you switch flywheel do you have the ability to check/ set the endplay? You can't just swap flywheels without doing so _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
Pruneman99 wrote: |
You only need to clearance the bellhousing a little bit. Starters are not that expensive. If you get an autostick, you don't need to fool with that stupid starter bushing. I got one at Autozone years ago. Never a problem.
Also, you can use a 1600 clutch that will give you the correct clamping force. You may end up driving through the smaller 6v clutch. Just use a pressure plate WITH the centering ring.
The rest of the buggy is 12v already. You can run a 6v starter on 12v, but the bendix will slam into the flywheel. It can cause damage over time. Using the 12v starter, this goes away.
Also, you won't have a Frankenstein setup.
I see more downside to what your trying to do than just using the 12v setup complete as a unit.
Just my .04c (inflation and all) |
I like where you’re going and you’ve peaked my interest….what specific areas do I have to grind out? Is there a kit where I can get everything to swap? Since the buggy is a 67’ I’d feel it would be fitting to bring it back to 12v. However I’d need more information before I pursue it further. Any ideas on if there is even a 12v kit out there? |
Here is a thread with a picture:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=680666
You can see in the photo the shiny areas that need touching. It's not much.
Get an autostick starter for a 72-74? bug. Get a 68-70? clutch and pressure plate.
Someone can chime in with exact years, but that should be close.
Bob's your uncle. Your local FLAPS should be able to get everything no problem. |
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Nitramrebrab72 Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2018 Posts: 485 Location: France
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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You can use a 12v battery on a 6v starter it has a lot more umff staring than a 12v starter but works fine, you will need to fit a 12v dyno/alternator though, no way round that one. |
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Mrorangecrush77 Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022 Posts: 119 Location: Utah
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:43 am Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Pruneman99 wrote: |
Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
Pruneman99 wrote: |
You only need to clearance the bellhousing a little bit. Starters are not that expensive. If you get an autostick, you don't need to fool with that stupid starter bushing. I got one at Autozone years ago. Never a problem.
Also, you can use a 1600 clutch that will give you the correct clamping force. You may end up driving through the smaller 6v clutch. Just use a pressure plate WITH the centering ring.
The rest of the buggy is 12v already. You can run a 6v starter on 12v, but the bendix will slam into the flywheel. It can cause damage over time. Using the 12v starter, this goes away.
Also, you won't have a Frankenstein setup.
I see more downside to what your trying to do than just using the 12v setup complete as a unit.
Just my .04c (inflation and all) |
I like where you’re going and you’ve peaked my interest….what specific areas do I have to grind out? Is there a kit where I can get everything to swap? Since the buggy is a 67’ I’d feel it would be fitting to bring it back to 12v. However I’d need more information before I pursue it further. Any ideas on if there is even a 12v kit out there? |
Here is a thread with a picture:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=680666
You can see in the photo the shiny areas that need touching. It's not much.
Get an autostick starter for a 72-74? bug. Get a 68-70? clutch and pressure plate.
Someone can chime in with exact years, but that should be close.
Bob's your uncle. Your local FLAPS should be able to get everything no problem. |
Forgive me if I’m not seeing it but I don’t see the shiny areas where it needs to be clearanced? I’ll post a picture of my trans and hopefully someone can help point out the areas |
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Mrorangecrush77 Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022 Posts: 119 Location: Utah
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:44 am Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! |
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Nitramrebrab72 wrote: |
You can use a 12v battery on a 6v starter it has a lot more umff staring than a 12v starter but works fine, you will need to fit a 12v dyno/alternator though, no way round that one. |
Motor is setup 12v so no worries there. |
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