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12V engine to 6v trans…HELP!
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Mrorangecrush77
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

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Here is my trans (yes I know it’s dirty, it will be cleaned before motor installation) I know the previous owner stuffed a 2180 in it at some point however I don’t know if that 2180 was 12v. If anybody can tell if this is clearanced please let me know?
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Pruneman99
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

It looks like its already done.

Touched top left. And bottom right and left.

If someone had a 2180 in it already, it's definitely already clearance.
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Busstom
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

It doesn't look clearanced at all to me, looks like pure unmolested 6 volt through and through.
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Mrorangecrush77
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Would it be considered wrong of me to clearance a “unmolested” 6v? Im not sure how much material I’d have to remove, I’m assuming a dremel would be the best tool of choice?
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Pruneman99
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Mrorangecrush77 wrote:
Would it be considered wrong of me to clearance a “unmolested” 6v? Im not sure how much material I’d have to remove, I’m assuming a dremel would be the best tool of choice?


Not at all. Even if you go back to a 1200, it's no problem.
If you have the 12v flywheel off already, just hold it up to the input shaft and you will see where it gets close or contacts the bolt bosses. A rotary tool with a aluminum rasp will make short work.

Or there is the backwoods way.. start the engine into the Trans until it hits. Use a wrench to spin the engine. The very hard sharp teeth of the flywheel will cut the soft Mag case.

Some people have actually started the engine, then slowly snugged the engine bolts.. pretty sketch.
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Busstom
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Yeah, grind that baby out. The method shown in the link I provided earlier is the best way, that is if you can gin up a case with just the crank and flywheel on it, you can use it as an indicator and slide it in/out as needed to find your interference points (oh, and a pulley on the back end to rotate with and help scrape the 12V teeth along to rub in some indicator marks).

A Dremel wouldn't be enough, the bit would clog up and it would be akin to fighting a house fire with your garden hose.

Edit: by the way, I can tell you from experience, go easy on that thin strap of material holding onto the starter bushing. It's an interference point, but you don't need to go hog-wild on it. You don't want to grind through it because you want it to keep a good grip on your next starter bushing (which will have the same O.D. but a smaller 12V I.D.). Moderate material removal, maybe less than half, will be adequate, you'll be able to squeak the flywheel by. I've ground through it once and it wasn't a problem, the bushing still held, but just avoid it altogether.
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Bugged Again
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

I’ve had to clearance for installing a 912 engine into my 74 vert years ago. It is a pain. Buy yourself some machinist BLUE. Clean that housing inside and apply some blue, then use the flywheel to print the blue ink. Repeat blueing until you have the clearance.

Good luck.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Nitramrebrab72 wrote:
You can use a 12v battery on a 6v starter it has a lot more umff staring than a 12v starter but works fine, you will need to fit a 12v dyno/alternator though, no way round that one.

In the past we have even used a 8v lawnmower battery for a little more cranking power.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Busstom wrote:
Yeah, grind that baby out. The method shown in the link I provided earlier is the best way, that is if you can gin up a case with just the crank and flywheel on it, you can use it as an indicator and slide it in/out as needed to find your interference points (oh, and a pulley on the back end to rotate with and help scrape the 12V teeth along to rub in some indicator marks).

A Dremel wouldn't be enough, the bit would clog up and it would be akin to fighting a house fire with your garden hose.

Edit: by the way, I can tell you from experience, go easy on that thin strap of material holding onto the starter bushing. It's an interference point, but you don't need to go hog-wild on it. You don't want to grind through it because you want it to keep a good grip on your next starter bushing (which will have the same O.D. but a smaller 12V I.D.). Moderate material removal, maybe less than half, will be adequate, you'll be able to squeak the flywheel by. I've ground through it once and it wasn't a problem, the bushing still held, but just avoid it altogether.


Idk why anyone fools with unsupported starters and that dumb bushing. Get a starter for an autostick bug. It's self supporting, and you don't need to mess with that dumb bushing ever.
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Mrorangecrush77
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Busstom wrote:
Yeah, grind that baby out. The method shown in the link I provided earlier is the best way, that is if you can gin up a case with just the crank and flywheel on it, you can use it as an indicator and slide it in/out as needed to find your interference points (oh, and a pulley on the back end to rotate with and help scrape the 12V teeth along to rub in some indicator marks).

A Dremel wouldn't be enough, the bit would clog up and it would be akin to fighting a house fire with your garden hose.

Edit: by the way, I can tell you from experience, go easy on that thin strap of material holding onto the starter bushing. It's an interference point, but you don't need to go hog-wild on it. You don't want to grind through it because you want it to keep a good grip on your next starter bushing (which will have the same O.D. but a smaller 12V I.D.). Moderate material removal, maybe less than half, will be adequate, you'll be able to squeak the flywheel by. I've ground through it once and it wasn't a problem, the bushing still held, but just avoid it altogether.



That definitely installs a bit of confidence in myself, however what would be the weapon of choice? I can’t imagine a regular angle grinder would fit?
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Bugged Again
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

This should go without saying, but cover your throw out bearing and shaft while grinding.
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Busstom
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Mrorangecrush77 wrote:
...what would be the weapon of choice? I can’t imagine a regular angle grinder would fit?

The problem with an angle (disc) grinder is that the geometry of the disc isn't suited for the shape of the bell housing; also, while you could make it work on the lower half (if you're deft and skillful with a disc grinder), you'd have to be a contortionist to do the upper half, unless you can roll the trans around, and it looks like its still in the vehicle. So, no.

You want something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Wolfcraft-2520000-30mm-Drum-Shank/dp/B001W7JWPY

^^^This looks like the better one, more robust. I've used the kind linked below, and they are pretty weak, the spot-welds can break and the drum starts shifting on the shank.
Edit: by the way, I'm about to embark on the exact same job for my '65 Bahama, I'm going to order this ^^^ one right now. Smile Duhhh.

Or this:
https://www.zoro.com/eazypower-30452-rotary-drum-rasp-with-14-shank-1-pack-3-30452/i/G7135932/

These tools aren't made for long-term heavy use, and they can weaken and fall apart if abused, so best to go easy on it. And in any case, spin slowly, like half speed on an electric drill, let the tool do its work and cut the material. Do NOT use an air/die grinder, they spin way too fast and these drum rasps are designed to spin and cut slowly. Besides, the tools aren't rated for such high speeds.

Get a tool with a 1/4" shank to fit your drill, locate your interference points with dye or paint to minimize unnecessary grinding, and just go slowly. This isn't a job to be rushed 10 minutes before you plan to ram the engine in. Expect to spend a few relaxing, patient hours on it to do it right. Don't hack it.

You can also use a rotary burr, and even put it in a die grinder, but again, speed control is the key. Personally, my opinion is that rotary burrs are more for smaller, localized locations, and your tranny looks like it needs a lot of material removed.
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Mrorangecrush77
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Busstom wrote:
Mrorangecrush77 wrote:
...what would be the weapon of choice? I can’t imagine a regular angle grinder would fit?

The problem with an angle (disc) grinder is that the geometry of the disc isn't suited for the shape of the bell housing; also, while you could make it work on the lower half (if you're deft and skillful with a disc grinder), you'd have to be a contortionist to do the upper half, unless you can roll the trans around, and it looks like its still in the vehicle. So, no.

You want something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Wolfcraft-2520000-30mm-Drum-Shank/dp/B001W7JWPY

^^^This looks like the better one, more robust. I've used the kind linked below, and they are pretty weak, the spot-welds can break and the drum starts shifting on the shank.
Edit: by the way, I'm about to embark on the exact same job for my '65 Bahama, I'm going to order this ^^^ one right now. Smile Duhhh.

Or this:
https://www.zoro.com/eazypower-30452-rotary-drum-rasp-with-14-shank-1-pack-3-30452/i/G7135932/

These tools aren't made for long-term heavy use, and they can weaken and fall apart if abused, so best to go easy on it. And in any case, spin slowly, like half speed on an electric drill, let the tool do its work and cut the material. Do NOT use an air/die grinder, they spin way too fast and these drum rasps are designed to spin and cut slowly. Besides, the tools aren't rated for such high speeds.

Get a tool with a 1/4" shank to fit your drill, locate your interference points with dye or paint to minimize unnecessary grinding, and just go slowly. This isn't a job to be rushed 10 minutes before you plan to ram the engine in. Expect to spend a few relaxing, patient hours on it to do it right. Don't hack it.

You can also use a rotary burr, and even put it in a die grinder, but again, speed control is the key. Personally, my opinion is that rotary burrs are more for smaller, localized locations, and your tranny looks like it needs a lot of material removed.


I guess we will see how this goes! I feel I’ve gathered enough information to tackle this issue soon! I will post photos of my progress once I’m finished! Thanks for the info!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Pruneman99 wrote:
Idk why anyone fools with unsupported starters and that dumb bushing.

I can think of at least one reason: you're a few hundred miles (or more) from home and your starter takes a dump. The nearest FLAPS has a standard 12V VW starter on the shelf, but they've got NO starters for the auto-stick. At least if you have the bushing in place, you're out of a pinch in a couple hours. Same scenario holds true if you happen to be in the vicinity of another Samba member, he's got three of the standard 12V starters in his stash, but, no auto-sticks. Just sayin'.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Mrorangecrush77 wrote:

I guess we will see how this goes! I feel I’ve gathered enough information to tackle this issue soon! I will post photos of my progress once I’m finished! Thanks for the info!


It will go fine! Clean ALL that oil residue out so that it's dry and clean, and tape rags over the input seal and T.O. bearing as was suggested, those tiny mag flakes get everywhere and they act like they're lighter than air! Smile

By the way, I just ordered the Wolfcraft drum rasp on Amazon, and it's over two weeks out! And that's with free Prime international shipping.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Busstom wrote:
Pruneman99 wrote:
Idk why anyone fools with unsupported starters and that dumb bushing.

I can think of at least one reason: you're a few hundred miles (or more) from home and your starter takes a dump. The nearest FLAPS has a standard 12V VW starter on the shelf, but they've got NO starters for the auto-stick. At least if you have the bushing in place, you're out of a pinch in a couple hours. Same scenario holds true if you happen to be in the vicinity of another Samba member, he's got three of the standard 12V starters in his stash, but, no auto-sticks. Just sayin'.


I guess Rolling Eyes I guess the autostick drivers are out of luck in that scenario. The nice thing about driving a manual is just the ability to bump start it. So I wouldn't be worried about being stranded.

You could just put the conversion bushing in and run the autostick anyway if you were really paranoid about it.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

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I was digging through my grandfathers old tools and to my surprise guess what I found!! After finding multiple Vw specific tools I’m Fairly confident I’m not the only one in my family who has needed to clearance a bell housing….I started the clearerancing, it’s going good, biggest question is if the Flywheel will fit depthwise after being mounted to the motor.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Wow that's one mamma jamma of a grinder. I used to have my great grandfather's 6" angle grinder. That thing was an absolute beast. Damn thing had to weigh 20 lbs. He was an Ironworks and bridge builder. He had to have been one strong dude to wield the beast all day.

Anyway, sorry, I'm not quite understanding what your asking? How far back to grind? Hold the flywheel in the bellhousing. Kinda line it up with the travel line of the starter bendix. Remember, he starter gear shoots towards the rear of the car to grab the flywheel.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

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Looks like it is clearanced out gents! I appreciate the help! That craftsman Hand grinder is a BEAST and really did the trick! Definitely falls into the category of “they don’t make em like they used to”, I think the next step is to bolt the flywheel back onto the motor and mate the bell housing to the motor. Hopefully all goes well! As I type this I am blowing magnesium chunks out of my nose! You guys weren’t kidding when you said they get everywhere! I’ll keep you posted on how the motor fits! [/b]
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 12V engine to 6v trans…HELP! Reply with quote

Nice. You should be home free. If there happens to be a small area that needs a bit more, the flywheel will take care of it itself.

Now this way you can run the larger 12v clutch and starter. Everything will work together. Just make sure to use a pressure plate WITH a centering ring.
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