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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12744
Location: Western Canada
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 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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| Luftwagen 2180 wrote: |
68 degrees, multiple stops, 4 second average. Front tires just starting to break loose, some chirping. BFG radial TA's. 225-60-15 in front at 15psi, 255-70-15 on the rear at 20 psi. 1,500 lb. buggy, 30 lbs. of gas and 200 lbs. of me. 1961 chassis with front wheel cylinders on all 4 wheels and dual master cylinder.
I guess that means if I'm driving with Orpn, I should be following him?  |
Thank you!
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12744
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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Ok Guys, I just got off the phone with Ken at Pacific Customs. After explaining the situation, Street Buggy, need to shift the brake balance more rearward, he said his recommendation was to put a ball valve in the front brake line so that I could just shut the front brakes off manually or just leave it cracked a bit if I want some pressure to the front.
I asked him if he was serious and he replied "Well that's all a proportioning valve does." Then I asked him if that was street legal. His answer was "I don't see why not, you can hide the valve and just operate it with a choke cable."
That right there was not an answer I expected in my wildest dreams! 
Again - draw your own conclusions!
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Luftwagen 2180
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2020
Posts: 50
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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Ok.... I guess I'd be following FAR behind you!  |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
All I know is what I has worked for me and it includes a bias valve in the front circuit to lessen front brake pressure. Something that modern ABS systems do a million times a day.
I have been reading about the use of them for over 25 years, mostly from guys who I respect and build buggies for a living, not just one or 2, but dozens and dozens.
I drive my buggy daily in the summer, and I drive it hard. Ill be the first to admit that i drive it like an asshole. I auto-xed it and lapped it for 20 years and drove it even harder. On the slippery surface at Bonneville I had to slow down from 120mph in a 1/4 mile to make the turnoff, a true test of brake modulation, i was on the threshold of lockup for the entire 1/4 mile. Next to no one will ever experience all these conditions, but rest assured, if I felt for one moment, that anything I have ever done to my car was the least bit unsafe or would put someone in peril, I would not be here sharing what I have done. In fact I'd be warning them against them. |
Did you ever go the route of swapping wheel cylinders to re-balance brakes? I plugged the top front port of the master cylinder and installed a splitter up front. When it came time to assemble the brakes I could have gone either way, but I chose to swap in rear rear cylinders at all 4 corners. I never insured the buggy last year so all it ever did was a few neighborhood low speed tests, nothing to really test the brakes (just determine all new brakes full of silicone brake fluid work, and are air free).
Back of the envelope calculations suggest that my wheel cylinder swap is roughly like using a Wilwood proportioning valve with it turned most of the way counter-clockwise (more aggressive valve pressure reduction). Perhaps 2 notches up on one of the lever valves. Disc brake conversions are out, I have 14 inch Bus wheels (rear re-hooped to 7.5 inches.)
Has anyone tried both wheel cylinder swapping and front proportioning valves in different builds? I would be interested in hearing about your comparisons between the options.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12744
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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| Luftwagen 2180 wrote: |
| Ok.... I guess I'd be following FAR behind you! |
No foolin" !!
No I haven't swapped out the wheel cylinders. I have my heart set on using my Fuchs wheels so I was going to use 944 rear brakes. Not sure how that will balance out...
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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| oprn wrote: |
Ok Guys, I just got off the phone with Ken at Pacific Customs. After explaining the situation, Street Buggy, need to shift the brake balance more rearward, he said his recommendation was to put a ball valve in the front brake line so that I could just shut the front brakes off manually or just leave it cracked a bit if I want some pressure to the front.
I asked him if he was serious and he replied "Well that's all a proportioning valve does." Then I asked him if that was street legal. His answer was "I don't see why not, you can hide the valve and just operate it with a choke cable."
That right there was not an answer I expected in my wildest dreams!
Again - draw your own conclusions! |
I would promptly ignore that person! They don't know brakes enough to know WHAT a proportioning valve does. I've already included a manufacturer's link showing how a proportioning valve works, including information showing its internally function. Proportioning valves are on the back of many older cars to reduce (but not block or delay) braking at the lighter end. (ABS is required now.)
Another example I won't name is well known VW business who told me that "disc brakes will always improve your brake balance." They sold a number of different disc brake kits, leaving an even larger number of possible front/rear combinations. They are all better? They all are better on Bugs, and on beach buggies too? (We did come to this thread to discuss how our braking needs are different than stock body Bugs, right?)
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12744
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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Ya, that was the "Guy that knows this stuff" that I was reffered to but was busy answering customer inquiries so I had to call back a second time and wait on hold for 15 minutes to talk to. You would have been proud of how diplomatically I signed off when I wanted to reach though that phone and... oh, ya! 
Ah, well! Like you said EVfun, this thread was started to discuss ideas and that one was a Do-osy!
He likely thinks he was a hero and some guy is out there happily installing a ball valve... Bwaaa ha ha!
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9147
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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| I've done the front to rear wheel cylinder swap in a couple of buggies i built and in my autocross buggy. It worked pretty well with street tires, but not enough reduction with slicks alone. I never did put a bias valve in with drums, but that would have been the ticket. There was other issues with drum brakes tgat lead me to just pitch them and go to discs all around. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12744
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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Well, I used to ignore all the guys that talked about upgrades to the drum brake system as too little, too late but I don't know now... I think they just might be on to something...
I have started down the disc brake rabbit hole so I hope to do the switch on the rears this winter and see how it goes. The stock drums are going into storage until the discs have proven to be better. So far no joy but that is only 1/2 of the story.
I am staying with the drum system on my sand rail. At 800 pounds and all low speed trail riding there is no advantage to changing them.
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fastfil
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Joined: November 25, 2006
Posts: 356
Location: Sunshine Coast, AUS
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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I have disks all round on my buggy. They work well on bitumen but lock a little too easily on dirt. I think I'm going to add a 2nd brake pedal half way down the pedal arm closer to the pivot point. That will be my offroad brake pedal.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12744
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes for our fiberglass buggies. What's worked for you? |
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| fastfil wrote: |
| I have disks all round on my buggy. They work well on bitumen but lock a little too easily on dirt. I think I'm going to add a 2nd brake pedal half way down the pedal arm closer to the pivot point. That will be my offroad brake pedal. |
Well that was a teaser for sure! Details please, what do you have for brakes (make, model, size, master cylinder), what tire sizes and could you time a couple of panic stops please?
And - do all 4 lock up, just the fronts, just the rears?
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