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Grace Brother
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Michigan
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 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:03 am Post subject: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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Hi, I'm new to the Samba and have been reading posts throughout the summer.
I bought this car earlier this spring while shopping for a bug that I could use as a daily driver.
Originally from CA, the seller had rebuilt the engine, added dual carbs, an oil cooler, fuel pump, and welded up a Flowmaster exhaust, among other mods.
It kind of has a Pep Boys hot rod feel to it.
I had a local vintage VW shop do a comprehensive inspection and paid a lot of money for amounted to a minor tune-up and cautionary advice about people with "golden screwdivers".
The car drives great and I look forward to dialing it in further.
I need to figure out the electric fuel pump. Why does it have a dash on/off switch?
Why did they mount the oil filter like that? So close to heat!
I have so many questions. Please send me some advice!
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andybla
Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2014
Posts: 630
Location: BE
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:15 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| actually it is not that close to heat because the fan shroud is blowing cooling air directly on your filter that would normalle be used for your interior blowers... |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:20 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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that is cool air from your fan, they should be capped if you aren't using the heat exchangers
the dash switch for the fuel pump is probably so they can shut the pump off, 1: security measure, 2: drain the carbs for storage, 3 : cut the pump off if there is a fire
Also an odd place for a ground on the shroud
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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Grace Brother
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:25 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| andybla wrote: |
| actually it is not that close to heat because the fan shroud is blowing cooling air directly on your filter that would normalle be used for your interior blowers... |
Thanks... I've never owned a VW that had it's heat system intact  . The fan shroud is plugged off, so it's not blowing, but it feels pretty warm. The oil temp guage barely moves aboves 120. The cooling fan is mounted behind the passenger back seat.
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Grace Brother
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:35 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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Also an odd place for a ground on the shroud
It does appear to be an afterthought. Any suggestions for better placement?
I've experimented with the fuel pump switch. The engine idles for a long time with it switched off. Occaisonally while driving, the engine feels like it's choking. I'll switch the pump off for a few until it sputters and flip it back on. Perhaps the flow rate needs adjustment? Does the dual carb setup require electric pump delivery or could I revert it to a stock mechanical pump?
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:44 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| Grace Brother wrote: |
Also an odd place for a ground on the shroud
It does appear to be an afterthought. Any suggestions for better placement?
I've experimented with the fuel pump switch. The engine idles for a long time with it switched off. Occaisonally while driving, the engine feels like it's choking. I'll switch the pump off for a few until it sputters and flip it back on. Perhaps the flow rate needs adjustment? Does the dual carb setup require electric pump delivery or could I revert it to a stock mechanical pump?
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I'm running a similar pump, but it's the Mr Gasket 42S low pressure pump. It works with BOTH Solex and Weber cars for our cars. In your case you might want to get a pressure regulator and a gauge on it and dial the pressure down to around 3-3.5 psi. I say that as otherwise you might be trying to over pressure/power the float valve in the carbs. Some of us are using an "impact switch" from Ford or Summit racing to shut the pump off in an accident. I hope this helps.
What part of Michigan are you located? I'm just outside of Port Huron. There's a couple of others here too.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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andybla
Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2014
Posts: 630
Location: BE
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2022 3:29 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| if the fan shroud is blocked off, normally the filter is put against the bumper mounts but maybe this is not possible with your setup, at this moment the heat from your exhaust header is going up to your oil filter |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:29 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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If the fan outlets are blocked off must be metal freeze plugs in them because I don't see anything. Looks like the original oil cooler was removed and another cooler near the trans was installed with an electric fan. I can't see the oil line routing just to the original cooler. looks like it goes from the filter to the added cooler and can't see where it goes from there. I've only seen full flowed off the oil pump with the stock cooler. This was a different way of doing it.
Looks like an Empi header and muffler. and the oil filter is right above it, not a good idea. while driving the heat from the muffler and header is moved away , while sitting in traffic the heat rises to the filter. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| blues90 wrote: |
| If the fan outlets are blocked off must be metal freeze plugs in them because I don't see anything. Looks like the original oil cooler was removed and another cooler near the trans was installed with an electric fan. I can't see the oil line routing just to the original cooler. looks like it goes from the filter to the added cooler and can't see where it goes from there. I've only seen full flowed off the oil pump with the stock cooler. This was a different way of doing it. |
It actually looks like there's an adapter where the stock oil cooler was located. This is really not the way to go, as oil doesn't flow to the original oil cooler until both pressure and oil temp move the plunger to the full open position and then it'll flow oil to the remote cooler. While the engine and the oil are warming up, the oil is directed at the bearings. Most remote oil cooler set ups use fittings to come off a new front cover plate on the oil pump, then return the oil into the side passage in the case, then keep the stock oil cooler. A thermostat is installed in the oil lines, and then turns on the remote oil cooler cooling fan. I don't know if that's plumbed in your system or not.
As for plugging the outlets of the cooling fan shroud, they might have used metal "freeze" plugs, or the rubber expansion version, as it's hard to tell from your pics. This takes the stock heating system out of the car, regardless of the exhaust system used. If you want to put the stock system back into the car, you'll first need to relocate the oil filter set up, and then plumb in the stock system using your existing exhaust, but using flexible aluminum or silicone style tubing from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster Carr.
I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
| If the fan outlets are blocked off must be metal freeze plugs in them because I don't see anything. Looks like the original oil cooler was removed and another cooler near the trans was installed with an electric fan. I can't see the oil line routing just to the original cooler. looks like it goes from the filter to the added cooler and can't see where it goes from there. I've only seen full flowed off the oil pump with the stock cooler. This was a different way of doing it. |
It actually looks like there's an adapter where the stock oil cooler was located. This is really not the way to go, as oil doesn't flow to the original oil cooler until both pressure and oil temp move the plunger to the full open position and then it'll flow oil to the remote cooler. While the engine and the oil are warming up, the oil is directed at the bearings. Most remote oil cooler set ups use fittings to come off a new front cover plate on the oil pump, then return the oil into the side passage in the case, then keep the stock oil cooler. A thermostat is installed in the oil lines, and then turns on the remote oil cooler cooling fan. I don't know if that's plumbed in your system or not.
As for plugging the outlets of the cooling fan shroud, they might have used metal "freeze" plugs, or the rubber expansion version, as it's hard to tell from your pics. This takes the stock heating system out of the car, regardless of the exhaust system used. If you want to put the stock system back into the car, you'll first need to relocate the oil filter set up, and then plumb in the stock system using your existing exhaust, but using flexible aluminum or silicone style tubing from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster Carr.
I hope this helps. |
I saw the adapter instead of the stock oil cooler. I've only seen photos of the added oil filter with the lines off the oil pump while still retaining the stock cooler. I never saw an added cooler and a fan on most full flowed systems. I always assumed when people do full flow it's just for the added filter. . In the OP photos I can see an added metal shield to cover the stock oil coolers opening seems it was done to retain the air flow from the cooling fan on that side.
You are correct about the function of the oil control and bypass valves ,once the stock cooler was removed it does not work as it was designed.
He does not care about heat as he said.
Still has the 2 cap breather must be venting where the PCV was under the small cap , really needs the old road draft type. No idea where the oil temp sender is located . Better photos might show more. |
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Grace Brother
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:45 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
I'm running a similar pump, but it's the Mr Gasket 42S low pressure pump. It works with BOTH Solex and Weber cars for our cars. In your case you might want to get a pressure regulator and a gauge on it and dial the pressure down to around 3-3.5 psi. I say that as otherwise you might be trying to over pressure/power the float valve in the carbs. Some of us are using an "impact switch" from Ford or Summit racing to shut the pump off in an accident. I hope this helps.
What part of Michigan are you located? I'm just outside of Port Huron. There's a couple of others here too. |
Thanks for the fuel pump advice... it sounds spot-on! I'm in the Metro Detroit area (Southfield). Hope to meetup with locals sometime. The car definitely gets a lot of interest everywhere I go. I got a few miles in this weekend. The car ran perfectly, which I can only attribute to a nice long warmup in the driveway each time. |
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Grace Brother
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:03 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| blues90 wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
| If the fan outlets are blocked off must be metal freeze plugs in them because I don't see anything. Looks like the original oil cooler was removed and another cooler near the trans was installed with an electric fan. I can't see the oil line routing just to the original cooler. looks like it goes from the filter to the added cooler and can't see where it goes from there. I've only seen full flowed off the oil pump with the stock cooler. This was a different way of doing it. |
It actually looks like there's an adapter where the stock oil cooler was located. This is really not the way to go, as oil doesn't flow to the original oil cooler until both pressure and oil temp move the plunger to the full open position and then it'll flow oil to the remote cooler. While the engine and the oil are warming up, the oil is directed at the bearings. Most remote oil cooler set ups use fittings to come off a new front cover plate on the oil pump, then return the oil into the side passage in the case, then keep the stock oil cooler. A thermostat is installed in the oil lines, and then turns on the remote oil cooler cooling fan. I don't know if that's plumbed in your system or not.
As for plugging the outlets of the cooling fan shroud, they might have used metal "freeze" plugs, or the rubber expansion version, as it's hard to tell from your pics. This takes the stock heating system out of the car, regardless of the exhaust system used. If you want to put the stock system back into the car, you'll first need to relocate the oil filter set up, and then plumb in the stock system using your existing exhaust, but using flexible aluminum or silicone style tubing from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster Carr.
I hope this helps. |
I saw the adapter instead of the stock oil cooler. I've only seen photos of the added oil filter with the lines off the oil pump while still retaining the stock cooler. I never saw an added cooler and a fan on most full flowed systems. I always assumed when people do full flow it's just for the added filter. . In the OP photos I can see an added metal shield to cover the stock oil coolers opening seems it was done to retain the air flow from the cooling fan on that side.
You are correct about the function of the oil control and bypass valves ,once the stock cooler was removed it does not work as it was designed.
He does not care about heat as he said.
Still has the 2 cap breather must be venting where the PCV was under the small cap , really needs the old road draft type. No idea where the oil temp sender is located . Better photos might show more. |
From what I can tell, The SS lines send and return from the original cooler area to the external cooler/fan near trans, on to the filter and back. There is a dash switch for the fan instead of a thermostat. I don't know where the temperature sensor is mounted, but I am looking for it.
The fan shroud has rubber expansion plugs which seem to be doing their job, and there is a lot of heat from the header pipe below the filter. The PO wrapped the rubber oil filler boot with header wrap. I realized it had melted when I poured a pint of oil in. Currently, I'm shielding the new boot with a pie plate until I can find a better option. |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| Those rubber oil fill boots after time dry out and crack. I have a similar exhaust and heat never destroyed it , I replaced mine with one from ISP West and it fits perfectly. Mine was just the original and they don't last forever. You need to remove the filler pipe where the oil dip stick locks to the replace the boot so you need the gasket to the body, it's usually turned to muck. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| blues90 wrote: |
| Those rubber oil fill boots after time dry out and crack. I have a similar exhaust and heat never destroyed it , I replaced mine with one from ISP West and it fits perfectly. Mine was just the original and they don't last forever. You need to remove the filler pipe where the oil dip stick locks to the replace the boot so you need the gasket to the body, it's usually turned to muck. |
Yup, I've replaced a few over the 30 years I've been a type 3 owner. They're not too expensive, and are an easy job to replace. I've ran several different exhausts on a type 3, and the oil fill boot seems to be one of the common things to go, along with the big cooling boot, as they get hard as stone as they age, then crack with the lightest touch.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Grace Brother
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 8:09 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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I'm baaack! Before pulling out of the garage this spring, I restored the exhaust. I rust stripped the existing headers & muffler with hi temp ceramic spray paint, new gaskets and had to replace a few studs. What a difference - sounds like it's supposed to. Now I have a weird fuel thing happening and I hope someone can offer a suggestion. Here's my drive:
Ignition fires right up, idles smoothly, warm up in driveway for 3-4 minutes.
On the street, I shift at 20 mph, cruise at 25 in second, shift at 30 mph and roll thru the hood until I get to the main road where I can get to 50 mph. This is when it falls apart. I have a 2 mile strip of fresh smooth pavement. 1st to 2nd sputters at 25mph, 2nd starts backfiring, and if I can get to 3rd I can feel it choking(?), stalling and picking back up (like when you drop the clutch-push start) I really have to baby each shift at lower speed than before. The top of each gear feels like it has too much fuel. So I tried shutting the fuel pump off when I first get the sputtering and it seems to remedy. I can drive for a stretch with no fuel pump, then I flip it on when it sounds starved. This worked like a charm on last night's drive, but not a solution.
I am going to replace the 2 inline fuel filters and get some fresh gas in the tank. What else should I consider? Thanks! |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| Grace Brother wrote: |
I'm baaack! Before pulling out of the garage this spring, I restored the exhaust. I rust stripped the existing headers & muffler with hi temp ceramic spray paint, new gaskets and had to replace a few studs. What a difference - sounds like it's supposed to. Now I have a weird fuel thing happening and I hope someone can offer a suggestion. Here's my drive:
Ignition fires right up, idles smoothly, warm up in driveway for 3-4 minutes.
On the street, I shift at 20 mph, cruise at 25 in second, shift at 30 mph and roll thru the hood until I get to the main road where I can get to 50 mph. This is when it falls apart. I have a 2 mile strip of fresh smooth pavement. 1st to 2nd sputters at 25mph, 2nd starts backfiring, and if I can get to 3rd I can feel it choking(?), stalling and picking back up (like when you drop the clutch-push start) I really have to baby each shift at lower speed than before. The top of each gear feels like it has too much fuel. So I tried shutting the fuel pump off when I first get the sputtering and it seems to remedy. I can drive for a stretch with no fuel pump, then I flip it on when it sounds starved. This worked like a charm on last night's drive, but not a solution.
I am going to replace the 2 inline fuel filters and get some fresh gas in the tank. What else should I consider? Thanks! |
If you're still running the 12S pump you showed above, that's the problem. You either need to put a regulator on it, or get a different pump like the Mr Gasket 042S low pressure pump. The Weber carbs you're running only need 3 psi, and the pump you're using is a 7 to 9 psi pump! This means you're over powering the needle and seat on both carbs, and trying to flood the engine with fuel. What does your oil level look like?
After that, you need to look at timing. With the 009 distributor you have you want all of the timing in at 3,000 rpm and you want 30 degrees of it, and then let the idle timing fall where it will (usually about 10 degrees). Once you get those things fixed, it should be a good runner.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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| Back to top |
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Grace Brother
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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Bobnotch - you mentioned the pump/regulator in an earlier post... I guess I'm just fully understanding now. Thanks!
So I could add a Mr. Gasket 9710 regulator and dial it in? Or better to just swap out for the 42S pump?
I checked the oil level, could use a top off. I need to yank the oil cooler out and redo the lines. It appears to be leaking at the poorly installed filter, maybe elsewhere. I get drips in various spots underneath. Hard to pinpoint the source. |
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jaransonT3
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2005
Posts: 1262
Location: Dearborn, MI
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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I missed this last fall. Welcome. I am down in Dearborn and have lots of Type 3 parts if you need anything. Can't really help with the fuel pump issue, but agree with Bob that you probably have way too much fuel pressure given the symptoms you describe.
You should join us for the Type 3 Take-over at the All Air-Cooled Gathering at the Gilmore Museum on Father's Day weekend next month. There is a thread for it on the forum and elsewhere. It would be great to meet you and check out your Square. Don't see many raised, off-roadish Type 3s. Way cool.
_________________
Later,
John Jaranson
'66 Square
'69 Square
'70-1 Fasty
https://www.carartbyjohn.com
https://www.carartbyjohn.com/2024Invasion/ |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:13 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| Grace Brother wrote: |
Bobnotch - you mentioned the pump/regulator in an earlier post... I guess I'm just fully understanding now. Thanks!
So I could add a Mr. Gasket 9710 regulator and dial it in? Or better to just swap out for the 42S pump?
I checked the oil level, could use a top off. I need to yank the oil cooler out and redo the lines. It appears to be leaking at the poorly installed filter, maybe elsewhere. I get drips in various spots underneath. Hard to pinpoint the source. |
You could go either way on adding a pressure regulator, or going to a low pressure pump. Myself I've been using a low pressure pump since 2010, as I have an all aluminum cased engine, and it'll vapor lock the mechanical pump (why I went electric). Since I've done so, I haven't had an issue with it since. I don't really like adding a regulator, as it's just another thing to fail, plus getting them dialed down low enough can be hit or miss. Brian ran into this in Missouri at an Invasion in 2008. I think at one point he was running 2 regulators to get the pressure to stabilize. I do know that the 42S pump will work fine with both Solex carbs and Weber carbs, as I've run one with both, and my son is running that pump on his Weber 34ICTs that he has on his 1.7L t-4 powered roadster.
I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Grace Brother
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:29 am Post subject: Re: My 72 Squareback ... Where do I begin? |
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| jaransonT3 wrote: |
I missed this last fall. Welcome. I am down in Dearborn and have lots of Type 3 parts if you need anything. Can't really help with the fuel pump issue, but agree with Bob that you probably have way too much fuel pressure given the symptoms you describe.
You should join us for the Type 3 Take-over at the All Air-Cooled Gathering at the Gilmore Museum on Father's Day weekend next month. There is a thread for it on the forum and elsewhere. It would be great to meet you and check out your Square. Don't see many raised, off-roadish Type 3s. Way cool. |
Hey good to meet you... I would definitely be interested in parts. (looking for a stock steering wheel) We're camping in Muskegon that weekend but it's not far. I might be able to make arrangements. Otherwise, I'm only a few miles north of you. I like driving through Hines Park and perhaps we could meet up. |
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