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heyskull
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2022
Posts: 170
Location: Cumbria, England
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 Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:54 am Post subject: Type 4 timing. |
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My 1972 Westfalia has a 411/914 engine installed so although it has the degree guage their are no marks on the face of the fan wheel.
The bung where you time it on these vehicles had to be chisseled out as some very clever person had bonded it in.
On taking this out and with the aid of a video camera and a torch I rotated the engine to find the marks on the fan wheel.
After rotating it several times there is definitely no marks on it, or if there was they are no longer there.
How do I find TDC and 7.5 BTDC without any marks?
I have put a stick down number 1 cylinder but it does not touch anything.
Help as I am just having to guess the timing at the moment?
Thanks
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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heyskull
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2022
Posts: 170
Location: Cumbria, England
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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I am not sure about the mark is hard to see.
Can I remove all the bits to check this with the engine in situ?
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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Yes, as long as you have access to the pulley on the fan you can find it.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
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timvw7476
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2206
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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| heyskull wrote: |
I am not sure about the mark is hard to see.
Can I remove all the bits to check this with the engine in situ?
SC |
The notch is actually like a shadow or cleft on the inside facing the timing scale on buses, & Ratwell's image of the 411 mark seems as though it's a faint stamping on the fan as well. I'd clean the fan to see better, then count five blades to the left of each mounting boss lug till I located 'the mark' .
My timing cleft has White-Out on it so no eye strain at tune up time. But even then it does get covered with road grit/grime & I have to hunt for it. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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| Use your fingernail or something like a butter knife to feel all along the forward rim of the pulley for the notch. it is tiny and can be quite hard to see. Once you find the notch or make one according to Ratwell you will need a timing scale to use in conjunction with it. |
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heyskull
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2022
Posts: 170
Location: Cumbria, England
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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I have spent all day on this.
I measured TDC with the 42mm from the screw only to find a mark there already.
I have moved the plug leads around on the distributor cap. But it still is not timing up properly.
Does anyone have a picture of the rough positioning and where each plug leads go to?
Thanks
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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| heyskull wrote: |
I have spent all day on this.
I measured TDC with the 42mm from the screw only to find a mark there already.
I have moved the plug leads around on the distributor cap. But it still is not timing up properly.
Does anyone have a picture of the rough positioning and where each plug leads go to?
Thanks
SC |
The mark works with a timing scale, if your scale is missing you can not time your engine using the "v" mark. Timing scales are available through various vendors in either plastic or metal. The stock plastic scale has proven very durable and accurate, don't know about the aftermarket plastic ones, while some of the metal ones are not known for being accurate. |
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heyskull
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2022
Posts: 170
Location: Cumbria, England
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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[quote=
The mark works with a timing scale, if your scale is missing you can not time your engine using the "v" mark. Timing scales are available through various vendors in either plastic or metal. The stock plastic scale has proven very durable and accurate, don't know about the aftermarket plastic ones, while some of the metal ones are not known for being accurate.[/quote]
I have a timing scale fitted just no marks on the wheel.
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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| heyskull wrote: |
| .........I measured TDC with the 42mm from the screw only to find a mark there already...... |
OK, so what's the problem then?, sounds like you found the mark.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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heyskull
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2022
Posts: 170
Location: Cumbria, England
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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[quote="busdaddy"]
| heyskull wrote: |
| .........I measured TDC with the 42mm from the screw only to find a mark there already...... |
OK, so what's the problem then?, sounds like you found the mark.[/quote
I need a picture of the rough positioning and where each plug leads go to?
Something is not in the correct position.
Thanks
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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If the engine runs even moderately strong and doesn't back fire your plug wires are likely correct.
What wheel do you not have a mark on? |
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heyskull
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2022
Posts: 170
Location: Cumbria, England
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
If the engine runs even moderately strong and doesn't back fire your plug wires are likely correct.
What wheel do you not have a mark on? |
I have ameasured the mark onto the alternator belt wheel and a scale held on the fan mesh cover.
SCREEN |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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The lead to #1 cylinder goes on whatever terminal in the cap the rotor points at when at firing TDC, the rest follow in a clockwise direction, 1-4-3-2.
Finding firing TDC is not just lining up the mark, you also have to confirm cylinder #1 is making compression on the stroke leading up to TDC. You can feel for compression, or watch the valves on #3 cylinder when at TDC, when they are both moving as you rock the engine back and forth it's at #1 TDC.
Or just stab the wires in at the first TDC you find, it'll either un, or backfire and kick, if it doesn't run move all the wires 180 degrees in the cap.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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| heyskull wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
If the engine runs even moderately strong and doesn't back fire your plug wires are likely correct.
What wheel do you not have a mark on? |
I have ameasured the mark onto the alternator belt wheel and a scale held on the fan mesh cover.
SCREEN |
Will your engine run or not? Put some paint or fingernail polish on your "v" so you can see it easily. The cylinder numbers are stamped on the tin, though not so easy to see due to all the wires and hoses.
Last edited by Wildthings on Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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heyskull
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2022
Posts: 170
Location: Cumbria, England
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
The lead to #1 cylinder goes on whatever terminal in the cap the rotor points at when at firing TDC, the rest follow in a clockwise direction, 1-4-3-2.
Finding firing TDC is not just lining up the mark, you also have to confirm cylinder #1 is making compression on the stroke leading up to TDC. You can feel for compression, or watch the valves on #3 cylinder when at TDC, when they are both moving as you rock the engine back and forth it's at #1 TDC.
Or just stab the wires in at the first TDC you find, it'll either un, or backfire and kick, if it doesn't run move all the wires 180 degrees in the cap. |
I need a picture of where the rotor arm should roughly be at TDC.
When trying to time it, the marks are way off
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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| heyskull wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
The lead to #1 cylinder goes on whatever terminal in the cap the rotor points at when at firing TDC, the rest follow in a clockwise direction, 1-4-3-2.
Finding firing TDC is not just lining up the mark, you also have to confirm cylinder #1 is making compression on the stroke leading up to TDC. You can feel for compression, or watch the valves on #3 cylinder when at TDC, when they are both moving as you rock the engine back and forth it's at #1 TDC.
Or just stab the wires in at the first TDC you find, it'll either un, or backfire and kick, if it doesn't run move all the wires 180 degrees in the cap. |
I need a picture of where the rotor arm should roughly be at TDC.
When trying to time it, the marks are way off
SC |
At TDC the rotor needs to be pointing to one of the towers. Put the #1 wire on that tower and then install the other 1-4-3-2 in a clockwise direction. If it will not try to run swap all the wires 180° around the cap. |
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dodger tom
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2013
Posts: 1272
Location: Central Coast, CA, but we're all still Ukrainian
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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| heyskull wrote: |
I need a picture of where the rotor arm should roughly be at TDC.
When trying to time it, the marks are way off SC |
search is your friend. pick one.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php...t_dir=DESC
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1978 Champaign Edition 2 Westfalia
Would never find the time to keep up another classic air-cooled. |
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heyskull
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2022
Posts: 170
Location: Cumbria, England
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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So what you are saying number 1 TDC can be anywhere.
I am only asking for roughly where most type 4 distributor is set for TDC?
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dodger tom
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2013
Posts: 1272
Location: Central Coast, CA, but we're all still Ukrainian
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing. |
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| heyskull wrote: |
So what you are saying number 1 TDC can be anywhere.
I am only asking for roughly where most type 4 distributor is set for TDC?
SC |
no, you asked for a picture and i found some.
looking at them myself, i can see they are not clear.
on my type iv the rotor points at #1 plug wire at tdc.
i’m no expert, but isn’t that universal?
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1978 Champaign Edition 2 Westfalia
Would never find the time to keep up another classic air-cooled. |
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