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Need transmission front mount advice
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Cubey
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:12 am    Post subject: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

Okay, so... the 64 baja I bought a couple months ago already has the heavy duty solid mount lower bracket with the support strap over it, this style:
https://empius.com/products/steel-trans-strap-kit-with-hardware/

But, the car doesn't have the solid front mount plate, or the front nose strap that comes in that kit. It only has the big lower mounting plate and the strap over the bell housing.

On the front, someone put a red urethane one decades ago and it's totally gone from deterioration. The nose cone mounts didn't get broken thankfully, so I just need a new front mount. There's no other added on front supports/straps/braces.

So, should I put another red urethane, or go to a solid front mount?

A VW old timer on FB who has a buggy suggested I put a solid front mount since it has solid rear, because that's how he's always done it/been told. He double checked his buggy to be sure, and he confirmed it has a front solid mount.

What about going red urethane plus one of these?
https://empius.com/products/front-kit-only/

It's going to be on road 2/3 to 3/4 of the time, a bit less vibration/noise would be nice, if I can get away with avoiding a sold front mount.
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dirtkeeper
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

I would use the stock one and get yourself a nose strap that goes at that end. All the red urethane crap I have ever used has failed. And has been replaced with stock and is holding up well.
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Cubey
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

dirtkeeper wrote:
I would use the stock one and get yourself a nose strap that goes at that end. All the red urethane crap I have ever used has failed. And has been replaced with stock and is holding up well.


Failed, but after how long? A month? A year? 5 years?

I tried asking advice on FB but I got a lot of dummies replying, telling me to buy a new German made one, that doesn't even freaking exist, unless you count 50 year old ones that people want too much for and might be deteriorated because of being half a century old lump of rubber. I asked where to buy one and was told "look around". Well gee, thanks, that really helps. Do I go searching in random shrubbery outside?

Another person told me a second time to replace the rear mounts after I already told and showed him it's a solid connection. Rolling Eyes I quit even trying to seek advice there after that.

But before I quit, I suggested the Oreilly one that's rubber and lifetime warranty and got told it's junk too. I suggested a "German quality" one from cip1 (https://www2.cip1.com/c24-311-301-265-a/ ), and got told it's junk too. So basically everything is junk, that's what I got out of it. No one gave any suggestions, just told me everything is junk but use the black rubber because they're better but no they're also trash. Mixed messages, much? Mad

So it seems I can either install a harder to install black rubber mount that's junk, or I can install a red urethane mount that's very easy to install but is also junk. I think I'd opt for easy to install junk over hard to install junk. Laughing

Or put solid and just be freaking done with it.


Last edited by Cubey on Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:50 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

Rhino mounts from CB Performance.
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6210.htm
Depending on how hard you plan to ride it you still may need a strap.
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Cubey
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

jeffrey8164 wrote:
Rhino mounts from CB Performance.
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6210.htm
Depending on how hard you plan to ride it you still may need a strap.


Thanks for the suggested part. Looks like maybe I might be able to get that installed without having to pull away the transmission from the bracket. Right now, I want/need something very easy to install, so if I can avoid having to unbolt and move the engine/trans away from the bracket to install a front mount, that's ideal. That's why urethane or solid are appealing to me, right now.

I don't even plan to run it that hard. And it has a '65 40HP engine, so it's not exactly a powerhouse. Like I said, it'll be on road mostly. Days of heavy off road abuse are over for this car.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

Before the Rhino mounts were available I used a #211301265A Bus front mount available from Wolfsburg West. They are a harder compound then Bug mounts.
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Cubey
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

jsturtlebuggy wrote:
Before the Rhino mounts were available I used a #211301265A Bus front mount available from Wolfsburg West. They are a harder compound then Bug mounts.


Thanks. One person on FB kind of mentioned a bus mount, but they sounded like they were having a stroke, because the sentence made absolutely no sense. They offered no years, no part number, nothing.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

I have stock 50 year old front mounts and solid rear mounts on both my sand rail and my street Buggy. No issues after 8 years on the rail and 5 years on the street Buggy.
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

How about heavy duty (Rhino) front mount with under transaxle mid mount/support plate....
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Cubey
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

OK, so... I ordered a used solid front mount plate from someone on here. It comes with a red urethane mount too... not sure why exactly but I'll take it.

The front plate for 72 and older is all sold out/backordered everywhere, unless you buy the whole $60+ kit that I don't need, so $18 shipped isn't a bad deal right now for 2 bits like that.

A friend is also gonna bring me the $6 lifetime warranty black rubber OEM style one from O'Reilly when they visit me soon: https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/power-torque-...gen-beetle

So, I'm gonna have all 3 to pick from: OEM black rubber style, red urethane, and solid steel plate. I'll probably put the solid, for now, unless I can wiggle the O'Reilly one in.


Last edited by Cubey on Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

Dale M. wrote:
How about heavy duty (Rhino) front mount with under transaxle mid mount/support plate....


For the time being, I'm trying to minimize costs. I've had to spend so much else on the car in the past 2 months, and it keeps needing more. I'm just trying to get it road worthy right now. Maybe in a year or two, I can consider redoing things with more expensive/new bits.
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Cubey
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

The old timer convinced me to get a front support too. It's cheaper and easier to install than a nose cone, that's for sure.

I shopped around and found a new one for $31 shipped from Appletree. It's under the "Latest Rage" brand but I think that's Empi, so it's the same exact thing as the Empi kit I guess, but a good bit cheaper.

https://www.appletreeauto.com/quiet-type-transmission-mount-with-strap-front-section/
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

If you are looking to save money, a 40 HP engine certainly does not need that extra front strap.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
If you are looking to save money, a 40 HP engine certainly does not need that extra front strap.


Oh well, it's already ordered. I guess I'll sleep better knowing it has better support for off road use. Less stress put on the two bolts at the nose cone, since it's going to be a solid mount most likely, at least for now.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

My red urethane front mount and engine mounts were squished and deformed after about 20k miles, noticed during an engine removal. At about 25k when I was doing a whole new refresh on the car. They were even worse , and my engine was sagging and found my torsion bar red urtethane donuts completely squished and funky, along with them having squeeked for years. Now with another 20 k on my bug the stock mounts look fine and my torsion bars don’t squeak. I would note that my red urethane items were originally purchased and installed in the early 80’s and not sure if it’s the same stuff today. I replaced it all in the late 90’s.
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Cubey
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

dirtkeeper wrote:
My red urethane front mount and engine mounts were squished and deformed after about 20k miles, noticed during an engine removal. At about 25k when I was doing a whole new refresh on the car. They were even worse , and my engine was sagging and found my torsion bar red urtethane donuts completely squished and funky, along with them having squeeked for years. Now with another 20 k on my bug the stock mounts look fine and my torsion bars don’t squeak. I would note that my red urethane items were originally purchased and installed in the early 80’s and not sure if it’s the same stuff today. I replaced it all in the late 90’s.


That's not terrible, considering how easy they are to install, especially on my baja where I don't even have to raise the car to get under it. Yeah the lifespan is terrible but replacement is very easy, I guess is my point. If anything, plastics are probably better now than 40 years ago.

Perhaps I'll use urethane anyway, and just keep the solid mount in the glove box for emergency use. But, will it make a difference vs solid as far as noise/vibrations, since the rear "mounts" are solid already?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
If you are looking to save money, a 40 HP engine certainly does not need that extra front strap.


For offroad use...YEAH it DOES!

Especially if the car is still swingaxle. In that case, the trans is the inner suspension pivot mount. Without the front strap. the nose of the trans will soon be destroyed. I've seen it MANY times WITH a 40hp. Including my own '58 Baja Bug. It ran for 25 years with a 40hp engine. I learned real quick how that little engine can tear up a trans nose cone before I fabricated my own complete with neoprene rubber insulation. It's still there by the way. Even though I converted the car to IRS over 20 years ago now and at the same time, upgraded to a 1600+ engine.

And I won't get into how many friends and customers had troubles with broken nose cones due to lack of or improperly mounted front strap.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
oprn wrote:
If you are looking to save money, a 40 HP engine certainly does not need that extra front strap.


For offroad use...YEAH it DOES!

Especially if the car is still swingaxle. In that case, the trans is the inner suspension pivot mount. Without the front strap. the nose of the trans will soon be destroyed. I've seen it MANY times WITH a 40hp. Including my own '58 Baja Bug. It ran for 25 years with a 40hp engine. I learned real quick how that little engine can tear up a trans nose cone before I fabricated my own complete with neoprene rubber insulation. It's still there by the way. Even though I converted the car to IRS over 20 years ago now and at the same time, upgraded to a 1600+ engine.

And I won't get into how many friends and customers had troubles with broken nose cones due to lack of or improperly mounted front strap.


I will be installing one of these as I mentioned. https://www.jbugs.com/product/9542.html

I went to do it a while back but found the car has extra steel welded in to support the frame horns on the outer edges so it's blocking the support's bolts. Easy enough fix, have to drill holes for the bolts to pass through, but I haven't one it yet since I'm waiting on CV boots still, and I'm not going nuts off road right now.

The welded in frame horn supports must be a common mod, because first several pics (the ones with the red transmission) on this page shows the same thing, with a holes drilled for the support kit's bolts to pass through: https://www.doghouserepair.com/store/item/3490/954...pi-4-bolt/
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

Those frame horn gussets on the outboard side of the forks is factory stock for swingaxle Bugs. It's NOT an aftermarket add-on. Yep...drill through them for the mounting bolts.

Be sure to install the strap assembly so that the strap stands up vertical and touches the trans right where the main case meets the forward bearing carrier housing. Look t pictures for where that is. I've seen SO MANY cars with that strap installed entirely WRONG!. There's a buggy in my backyard right now waiting to be picked up by its owner which came here with that strap angled toward the low area in the top of the trans case and the nose cone destroyed. And it could NOT be tightened on the trans. So there were wear marks on the trans from the trans flopping against it.

Ensure that the strap is properly located before you drill the holes in the gussets.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Need transmission front mount advice Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
Those frame horn gussets on the outboard side of the forks is factory stock for swingaxle Bugs. It's NOT an aftermarket add-on. Yep...drill through them for the mounting bolts.

Be sure to install the strap assembly so that the strap stands up vertical and touches the trans right where the main case meets the forward bearing carrier housing. Look t pictures for where that is. I've seen SO MANY cars with that strap installed entirely WRONG!. There's a buggy in my backyard right now waiting to be picked up by its owner which came here with that strap angled toward the low area in the top of the trans case and the nose cone destroyed. And it could NOT be tightened on the trans. So there were wear marks on the trans from the trans flopping against it.

Ensure that the strap is properly located before you drill the holes in the gussets.


Ah ok.

So, the pics with the red transmission (i think it's a swing axle) have it correct? Although some look like it's sitting wrong like you described. The first pic after the stock photo looks correct, i think? and the bottom view
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