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EDS411 Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2019 Posts: 16
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Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:17 pm Post subject: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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Hello,
Fellow 411 owners. I am in the middle of reinstalling my rebuilt 1.7. While i have it all out I was giving my manual tran a one over and a clean. As part od the removal I disconnected the slave cylinder for the clutch and noticed inside the dust boot there was minimal fluid but fluid none the less. First is this normal for the 411. Can they be rebuilt if not do you know where I can but a replacement.
Any replies are appreciated.
Best Regards |
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Tvättbjörn Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2004 Posts: 1431 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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I would find out what size the piston is and inspect the inner portion of the cylinder bore. If the piston diameter is the same like from a VW wheel cylinder you might be able to use portions of a rebuilt kit from a wheel cylinder. The inner seal is all you need unless the outer dust boot is bad also. Just an idea since it will me almost impossible to find a rebuilt kit for it and if you do, it will be most likely decades old already. |
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earthquake Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008 Posts: 3984 Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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You should try posting this over in the 411/412 sub forum.
They might be able to help you better...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewforum.php?f=33
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DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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Yes...contact us over on the 411/412 forum. I am just as happy answering here...but we will be the only two reading it....and too many people with bad attitudes will bitch about it
No...these are nothing like wheel cylinders.
There are two different sizes and types. We need to know what year 411 you have and where you are will help.
And it gets involved.
The early 411's up to August of 1969....had a 22.25mm slave cylinder. After August of 1969 (1970 year model)....they were 44.5mm diameter.
Yes the early transmission used not only a different slave, it used a different clutch and flywheel for the very early models (1968-69 used a 200mm clutch and PP)....and...had a totally different bell housing on the transmission and a totally different clutch fork.
So they were not interchangeable....so we need to know what you have.
And...to throw a wrench in it........the clutch master cylinder will be shot too...but thats easy to fix as long as its not rusted. The twist...is that all of these cars used a 19mm clutch master cylinder. BUT....somewhere in the 1970 model year...6000 cars were made with a 17.46mm bore....
Ok...the skinny is ...that there are "0" parts available for these. NOS cylinders....if you can find them....and IF they are already assembled with the piston in the bore...are 100% junk because the EPDM seals creep and flatten with age.
If you find a seal kit....and teh seals have not been installed in a bore and are either on the piston or not.....they will be a little stiff but they can be installed and will work.
The 19mm master cylinder you can steal teh seals from any 19mm master cylinder kit but you MUST use the pistons in YOUR cylinder. They made both FAG and ATE brands. The seals from FAG do not work as well in ATE and vice versa....and you cannot swap pistons from brand to brand.
And...the vanagon clutch master cylinder...can be installed as is if you make an angle iron bracket to bolt it up. Same diameter and stroke.
As you can see the seals are odd ball. They are not made.
But we have a few answers. This is one I have been working on for years.
I have found a semi-stock seal that will fit the 44.5mm slave...but the piston needs slight mods and the seal is not a shaft seal style so it needs a backer ring as well. The minimum order is about $250 from teh company that has them.
Next month I am plating all of my master cylinder and brakes/clutch slave cylinder bores....and then will order seals. I have a mold made already for teh outer boot and will make it of silicone. Possibly by April I will be selling rebuilt cylinders with nickel plated bores.
There are lots of options here with some fabrication . Its also possible that a Golf, 4, 5, 6 slave can be installed with a mounting bracket.
So drop into the 411/412 forum and lets see what we can do. Ray |
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Jennepher Administrator
Joined: September 10, 2002 Posts: 4766 Location: Arizona
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 780 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:10 am Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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If you have the later (-70 on) 44.5mm slave cylinder these guys have some rebuilt parts.
http://www.pastparts.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=80_216&product_id=583
From what I remember people who have bougt it are happy with it.
/Lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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EDS411 Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2019 Posts: 16
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Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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Thank you for the feedback. This is my first rebuild first aircooled and of course first two 411s. I have contacted Pastparts Co uk. But may give a late model slave cylinder a try. I will post here to let you know how it turns out.
Best Regards
Ed |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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EDS411 wrote: |
Thank you for the feedback. This is my first rebuild first aircooled and of course first two 411s. I have contacted Pastparts Co uk. But may give a late model slave cylinder a try. I will post here to let you know how it turns out.
Best Regards
Ed |
Please post your location and year of car.
Do not order anything until you verify exactly what you have. If its not the correct cylinder there is no way to make it work. They are totally different.
Also be sure its RECENTLY rebuilt.....and not an NOS cylinder. The NOS cylinders are all pushing 35 years old at thejr newest and 95% will not work because of age. Ray |
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EDS411 Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2019 Posts: 16
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Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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Canada car was originally a BC car 70 and newer were the 44 mm so im thinking 412 1.8 litre was the same setup |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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EDS411 wrote: |
Canada car was originally a BC car 70 and newer were the 44 mm so im thinking 412 1.8 litre was the same setup |
The issue...is that 1970 anywhere in North America was a transitional year. In the few 1970 and 1971 vehicles I have found...they have been evenly split between the two different types of slave cylinder.
And....you do not know if the car has the original transmission in it. Its VERY common that an earlier or later trans could be installed when the original had problems.
If you can jack the car up and remove the left rear wheel...you can look right at it. You can possibly also see it if you just jack up the car and crawl underneath and look up the left side of teh trans about 3" forward of the bell housing parting line.
If you can take snapshot we can tell you what it is.
Oh...by the way...Welcome to the world of 411 and 412 and the forum!
Ray |
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EDS411 Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2019 Posts: 16
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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Hello Ray,
I had a chance to pull the slave cylinder apart today. The piston and case look like they are in good condition as I can see the brush marks which are perpendicular to the stroke of the piston. I have it soaking right now to clean it up before a closer inspection. I was surprised to see how much rust was in the back of the case as the spring was seized to the body. This corrosion appeared to be from the spring. The rubber seal (1) looked to be in good structural condition but I plan look closer at the sealing edge to ensure there are no nicks or micro scratches.
Should I still just replace?
Regards |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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EDS411 wrote: |
Hello Ray,
I had a chance to pull the slave cylinder apart today. The piston and case look like they are in good condition as I can see the brush marks which are perpendicular to the stroke of the piston. I have it soaking right now to clean it up before a closer inspection. I was surprised to see how much rust was in the back of the case as the spring was seized to the body. This corrosion appeared to be from the spring. The rubber seal (1) looked to be in good structural condition but I plan look closer at the sealing edge to ensure there are no nicks or micro scratches.
Should I still just replace?
Regards |
So...which slave do you have?...the 44.5mm or the 22.25mm?
Yes...it is the rubber seal that will have failed. They typically "look" just fine when you take them out.
Part of the problem with the 44.5mm slave cylinder is that it is not a perfect design. The piston is much longer out toward the pushrod end. This causes the piston to cock slightly in the bore as it strokes. This wears the edge slightly crooked on the seal...and it starts to leak much faster than it should.
Late in production.....one of the slave manufacturers started making the piston with 2 seals. One closer to teh outer end and facing the opposite direction. That 2nd outer seal did nothing for sealing. It simply kept the piston straight in the bore and kept more dust out when the boot fails.
The rust is from the previous owner not bleeding the slave on a regular basis and water collects in the fluid there since it is a dead end....or the boot failing lets moisture in.
Yes...you should replace the seal. The issue is...getting a seal to replace it with. If the link that Lars gave you is still good...getting one that is a rebuild is your best path. Ray |
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EDS411 Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2019 Posts: 16
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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Thanks Ray,
44.5mm ss I did connect with past parts and they do have one in stock so I think I will go that way thank you as well Lars past parts did respond with the 1972 411/412 being the same. I did think this was the case but glad I have more experienced 411ers to rely on.
Best Regards Guys
Ed |
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EDS411 Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2019 Posts: 16
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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Thanks Ray,
44.5mm ss I did connect with past parts and they do have one in stock so I think I will go that way thank you as well Lars past parts did respond with the 1972 411/412 being the same. I did think this was the case but glad I have more experienced 411ers to rely on.
Best Regards Guys
Ed is |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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I finally saw your picture in the gallery. Yes....its the late 44.5mm.
One thing I am shortly going to get back to when I get home. I am going to measure the Golf mk 4, 5, 6 slave that I have for a mounting bracket to the 411/412 transmission.
I have about 10 slave cylinder cores.
As I noted in a post months back....I have found a source for usable seals. I CAN re-mold the outer boot in silicone. I can hone and nickel plate the bores back to BETTER than factory tolerances.....all of which would make the cylinder and boot last largely forever....and only need a new main seal every 50k miles or so.
However.....the only reason I am interested in doing all of that work.....is so "I" can have a new cylinder and a few spares. The rest probably 7-8 cylinders.....I would sell off at cost....just to pay for the processes....I.....need to use to get what I need. Those would be about $80 each....and would come with at least 2 spare seals each.
I am torn about doing that......because it requires polishing each cylinder after honing...then masking and electroless nickel plate....then making the mold for the boot....then casting the boot....then buying the seals.
The plating of the slaves.....will help me to afford a large enough plating batch to plate a handful of other items.....that are more important (mainly clutch and brake master cylinders and piston rod big ends to decreasd side clearances)......but I hate wasting the nickel plate and $$$'s on the slaves....if there is another simpler answer.
Ideally....I CAN make the Golf slave bolt up. Thats not an issue. Its just a piece of plate 3/8" steel with four holes drilled and tapped in it.
I would then have to test and shim for stroke length. Just some work.
I keep going back and forth. I would love to restore the stock slaves to be able to have the original to just bolt on.....but I just cannot justify the cost/effort....when a late model Golf slave ($85 for OEM) and two hours to make an adapter plate....and the fact that the Golf slave would actually last longer, be easy to replace.....and would work better and give a better pedal feel. Ray |
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CAVEHEAD Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2022 Posts: 43 Location: GEORGIA
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: 411 Manual Tran Slave cylinder Replace vs Rebuild |
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does anyone have the part number or model year Golf Previously Ray mentioned: ".when a late model Golf slave ($85 for OEM) and two hours to make an adapter plate.." in an old post |
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