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Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs
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ORANGECRUSHer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:25 am    Post subject: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

So one of the issues I'm contemplating right now is the cooling system on my woodsbuggy. It has one of those 14"x16" squarish ricer coolers that you can get cheap off of ebay all day long. Initially, I was told by someone who uses the Quad4 engines in legend racing that he used that cooler and it did fine in an open engine design. Well it doesn't. Not at all. As a matter of fact I believe it was the reason my first engine popped a hose at the dunes.
There really is no room where it is (on the right side of the engine) to put a bigger radiator. I don't want to put one on the back of the cabin area because 'hot coolant'. I also don't care for it on the back frame 'roof' over the engine. I don't feel like that would be an efficient spot. Getting hoses into it and also a filler at the right angle would be a lot of work. I'd basically have to reweld the entire radiator.
So I've researched a wing design, where you get a Jeep Commander radiator which is long and short and build it into a wing on the back of the car and use fans to pull air through it.
Some even go so far as to make the wing hinged so as to have better access to the engine. I don't want to obscure the top of the engine with a radiator. I kinda like the looks of the top of my engine. So I'm thinking of a wing off the back that can either be swung up or off to a side.
My question is how would you run coolant lines so they were secure yet flexible enough to be bent. Some type of accordion type hose would be nice as it would hold it's shape. I have a hose like that underneath the engine that I got from a hydraulic supplier but it's super tough to bend.
Just looking for ideas.
crappy blurry pic for inspiration:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Wulfthang
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

My street legal trail rail is water cooled. The engine is a hyped up old style Ford V6. The engine is naturally aspirated but I've done quite a bit of high performance work to it and it runs hotter than stock.

I tried a position behind the seats in front of the motor but it was a waste of time. I thought about behind the engine with a pusher fan blade on the engine but gave that idea up too. I ended up mounting it "up on her back". That worked but not well enough. It still ran hot. During the summer here in Southern Arizona, it can get really hot.

I spent a lot of time with little ribbons tied all over the place and driving it around to see what the airflow looked like. I can tell you with no doubts at all, that the airflow around and over a rail type buggy is absolutely awful!!!! Stuff sticking out, frame tubes, gas cans, luggage racks, etc. destroys any decent airflow.

I did a lot of little things to improve the cooling of my rails engine. I installed bigger electric radiator fans, a huge oil cooler, built an airflow director to catch the air flowing up the windshield and directed it back to the radiator, built another one on top of the radiator to catch air and force it underneath, raised the front edge of the radiator by a couple of inches to catch more air, Blueprinted the water pump internals, extra fans on the underside of the radiator for those "hot times", machined two new engine water outlets to remove curves and improve the flow of water, advanced the ignition timing up by two degrees and installed inline coolers in the radiator hoses.

Everything helped a little bit and together it made all the difference. I can sit in traffic, run down the Interstate at a hundred mph plus or crawl up and own mining trails all day long without it running hot.

Yes, the radiator sits up high where it can rain boiling water on the occupants but I have taken every precaution to prevent that. It's far enough back so it would have to spray water to get us. However, I installed an Acrylic panel as a "blast shield" between us and it. I also check the hoses every time I drive it.

All together, it works fine. I installed a 140 amp alternator to keep up with the five fans. (One on the oil cooler and the two aux fans on the radiator only run when it's really hot)

One thing that drove me crazy in the beginning, was a system designed into most water cooled engines. It's called a "Water Pump Bypass". Basically, it's a thing to keep water pressure from damaging something while the thermostat is closed while the engine warms up. The thermostat keeps the water from flowing to the radiator until it's hot enough but the water pump keeps on pumping. It has to go someplace and that's thru the Bypass.

The problem with the bypass is two fold. First, on most water cooled engines, it NEVER turns off! Water is always flowing thru the Bypass system. On a normal cars engine it's not much but some and that water is not getting cooled.

The second problem with the Bypass, is that water is lazy. It will always flow the easiest way. If it's difficult to pump water to the radiator like when it's up high, water would rather cheat and flow thru the Bypass. Now it's actually a lot of water flowing thru the Bypass and that's a loss in cooling power. (I visually measured the water flow thru the Bypass system)

The solution is simple: Drill small holes around the sides of the thermostat and plug the Bypass system. The holes will bleed enough pressure to protect the system and now all of the water is gong thru the radiator.

It took a while to get it all working right but it's fine now.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The finned tubes are the "Inline Coolers". They're actually transmission coolers that I machined out for my engine as extra water coolers. They work pretty good.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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ORANGECRUSHer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

Ive examined your rig before. It's apparent you have had a lot more time to test things out. Half the year here It's NOT buggy weather.

I have pondered the bypass system before but I never did much about it. On a quad4 those hoses go to the heater core. They come out of the pump housing and another position about a foot away. It's convenient because I was able to just span the two spigots with a 3/4" hose. I ended up making an inline temp gage holder out of a piece of aluminum tubing that I put in that line. I actually probably made things worse with that straight shot. It's possible I could add a tranny cooler or five in that line.

I want to make angular body panels eventually. Maybe I'll design a way to get air back to a wing. That'll probably happen sooner than later now.
I just wish I had the time I had when I started this rig like 13 years ago. Anyways, enuf ranting.

How are those silicone hoses the tuner guys use? Something like that might be what I'm looking for where a hose has to move sometimes?
You gave me a good idea to fab aluminum tubes where the hoses are straight and weld fins around them. Heatsink pipes.
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Wulfthang
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

When you're saying "one of those 14"x16" squarish ricer coolers", are you referring to the radiator? If so, that's most of your problem and the shorted out Bypass is the rest of it. You're probably flowing a lot of water thru that Bypass cut out and none of it's getting cooled. Cap the hoses and drill the thermostat. It'll help.

14 x 16 seems kind of small for a radiator.!? My oil cooler is that big! Yeah, I'm using some of those silicone hose adapters. So far, they've worked fine but I do carry spares.

As far as getting air to anyplace: I built a scoop type airfoil and mounted it on top of my windshield. It catches the high pressure air flowing up the windshield and redirects it backwards instead of just letting it blow up and away. I used a couple of air duct type things to take some to the oil cooler and also just blow on the underside of the radiator. There's a guy over in the UK who built the roof of his car so that it captures all of the windshield air and directs all of it to the rear cooling system via a double panel roof.

The secret to getting air to flow thru a radiator, is to cause a pressure differential between the front and back. Then air will flow from the high pressure side thru the radiator to the low side. fans will do it but airflow helps!
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ORANGECRUSHer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

Thanks for your suggestions. I've got a better idea of what I need to now.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

Yea, mine works great - in fact after racing it hard all year turns out my cooling is so good I can't actually get the car hot enough, I've been blanking half my oil cooler off and 1/3 of the radiator too with tape Shocked Laughing
Even in 42c summer temps it had zero issues at all.


Silicone hoses are fine for coolant but they're really not going to bend too much if you're after something you can swing out of the way to service the car with.
You'd be better off putting it somewhere you can work on the engine and just duct air to it.
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JWHracing
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

Lots of people starting to use -16 and -20 AN fittings and braded lines for coolant lines. Those would be more flexible than a silicone hose to allow you to move the radiator like you want to.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

Hard wall and corrugated Marine coolant hoses are good in addition to the silicone hoses
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:14 am    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

sailtexas186548 wrote:
Hard wall and corrugated Marine coolant hoses are good in addition to the silicone hoses


I wonder if this is what I have on the bottom of my engine for the crossover?
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ORANGECRUSHer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

I think it's time to visit the Parker store again
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

This is what I've used. Super tough, but a little stiff.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

Wulfthang....how much do your fans run? I had the same sort of mounting on my sand-rail (dunes and beach). When I made a U-shaped scoop....flat on the bottom, triangular sides that came up to the sides of the radiator, w/no escape in the back (so if the air came in, it was caught, and had to go up, thru the radiator), my fans hardly ever came on again. So, from the lowest point on the radiator (looking at yours), I came forward, horzontally, till it was even vertically, w/the front of the radiator.

Your radiator should be vertical, up in the wind. If you can, make a shroud, so the air can't go around it. Possibly behind your head, between the roll-cage, w/the hoses going towards the rear. In front of the X in the rear of your frame. Then, sheet Aluminum on both sides, between the vertical tubing. That way, the air that hits you in the face goes thru the radiator.

If your radiator is mounted right, your fans should hardly ever come on.

I ran a Pinto for years and I had no fan at all. The radiator came from a Ford, and it had about 6" of shroud on each side of it.

YOur coolant lines don't need to be rubber. 1" or 1 1/4" conduit will work. You can bend it, and you can buy bends. You braze it together. It will last longer than your AL-head will....with or w/o antifreeze. You'll have to braze a lip around the ends, to hold the hose on (like your radiator outlet has on it. Then you use less than a foot of rubber hose.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

Stinky123...I have a shroud on it now but after quite a bit of experimenting, I found that my engine ran cooler with no shroud than with one. It was a case of the aerodynamics causing a venturi effect with no shroud versus no venturi effect with the shroud on. I put it back on because in the areas I run around in are tree branches that will impale my radiator. I did cut it so larger fans will fit.

I can not mount my radiator vertically up in the wind because it would be to tall! I wouldn't be able to fit under the road culverts or it would get smacked off by a tree branch!

The two long lengths of my coolant lines, the ones running from the engine up to the radiator, are metal. They started life as eighteen inch transmission coolers. I machined the ends off so they're just long finned tubes. They actually do cool but I have no idea how much. You can feel the heat radiating off of them.

It took a lot of work but my fans don't come on for what i consider to much or to often even with the 120 degree heat in the summer. I've run it down the Interstate at 100+ mph and crawled up and down hills with no problems. Besides, radiator fans are supposed to come on! That's what they live for! A big alternator handles them with no problem.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

Double-Paneled roof...that intrigues me. I could see where that would really work good.

I didn't mean above your roof level. You have the room, farther back. The radiator souldn't be higher than your cage.

I can't get a good enough look at either rail to really come up w/anything.

If it runs cool in your area, that is what matters.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Radiator "wing" for watercooled rigs Reply with quote

Stinky123 wrote:
Double-Paneled roof...that intrigues me. I could see where that would really work good.

I didn't mean above your roof level. You have the room, farther back. The radiator souldn't be higher than your cage.

I can't get a good enough look at either rail to really come up w/anything.

If it runs cool in your area, that is what matters.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It reaches down the windscreen a little bit and hence picks up all the high pressure, high energy air hitting there. Feeds the radiators and the engine airbox with plenty of pressure.

The one above is a seperate feed for the intercooler, which doesn't really need much in the way of airflow it basically just stops it choking and reversing airflow direction from low>high speed. Could do with a couple of vortex generators in front of it to trip the boundary layer but that's for a winter tweaking session.
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