No start, help needed--Sorta resolved

[DuncanS]

Double posting...eliminated.

Duncan

[DuncanS]

Wish I'd had your knowledge, Mark, before I pulled it up, but I'm sure I can get it all back together. It's just a mechanical piece of stuff with parts that fit and have to work. Not a mysterious IC gizmo the size of a pea with unknown stuff doing unknowable code things which only a few understand.

Tomorrow is the day and not anywhere near as cold.

Although this is frustrating and disappointing to have so many negative or rather inconclusive results, the learning and gaining confidence about the system is a far greater offset. With patience, listening and learning, I have little doubt my faithful steed can emerge from the ICU in better and healthier condition.

Thanks everyone.

Duncan

[DuncanS]

Today's log.

Loosened the dizzy as Mark suggested with a few threads of the nut still engaged. Pulled up the dizzy and the rotor became free. Because I had lost my nearby ground when fiddling with it I, which I hadn't noticed at the time, I redid the tests. Sure enough, a signal was sent to the ECU as I could smell the gas. Didn't hear the injectors click, but I'm hard of hearing.

No spark. Tomorrow I'll try it with the other two ECUs and put a rod on the injectors with my ear on it while trying the test.

There are two hoses which go up to the halo line under the rim of the hatch eliminating real access to the ECU loom at that point. There is black electrical tape for about 14" at this point where a number of branches join. So I'll pull the hoses and access the loom and carefully unwind the tape and open the plastic loom and check the condition of the wires. There could very easily be a corroded wire or two in there.

Also, while rooting around in the garage overhead, I discovered another ECU harness. This means I have three spares and will take a look at a possible Frankenstein mod of them to be a test item. But I really want a brand new one as there are a bunch of plugs and God only knows what condition they are in.

https://gowesty.com/products/engine-compartment-harness-80-91 Interesting, but doesn't include the Hall sender connection that I can see and it doesn't go all the way to the ECU with a new plug there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgR1zu56wsc This is the one I need. Source???

Just sent an email to Kyle Automotive.

Duncan

[DuncanS]

A question.

What are the minimum number of elements required to get the engine to run? I'm thinking of taking one of my three spare ECU engine harnesses and clipping off the components unnecessary to have it run. Doesn't have to run properly, just confirm that the ignition system and ECU are OK to create a spark and fire. I can cut the fuel pump out of the circuit as well for just spark, but if it runs then I can narrow it down to which element or wires may be causing the no spark issue.

Duncan

[bobbyblack]

Do you have the AFM plugged in? Several of my 'adventures' with no-start were due to my forgetting to plug that back in.
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[DanHoug]

[DuncanS]

Good point, Dan. I do have voltage across the two outside pins of the Hall sender plug. Since BB says the AFM is instrumental in having the engine run, I plan to butcher one of the three spare ECU/engine harnesses I have leaving only the AFM and the three Hall Sender wires and the #1 terminal at the coil left. The others will get clipped. Are there any others absolutely necessary to having it run--not well, just fire and buck and sneeze, telling me there is spark and fuel more or less at the right time? If there are too many, I'll just keep the basic Hall wires to see if there is spark. Pretty sure at least one of the three ECUs is good, if not all. Since there is spark through the ECU by dragging the center wire to ground, that would mean it's time to pony up and get a new dizzy with a Hall sender. Yes???

Want to do this soon so BD can get a pkg out today.

Duncan

[do.dah]

I know you're close to BD, but, after I had a bad Hall gen, I decided to get a whole spare dist so that I didn't hafta try and replace a Hall gen while out and about.
I REALLY wanted a genuine Vanagon dist, but, at the time, couldn't find one.
Decided it was gonna hafta be an aftermarket.
Apparently, ALL the aftermarket ones thru our specialty vendors are for Jettas I think? Which seems to mean rotor/cap and firing order labeling are different than our Vanagons.
At the time, Burley seemed to have the least expensive drop-in dist, and as I recall, had set them up to accept standard Vanagon replacement parts, rotor/cap.
Sorry, I just don't recall the specifics of what I went thru at the time, and maybe things have changed?

[crazyvwvanman]

If you get a spare dizzy get a spare mounting clamp for it as well.
Then you can swap dizzys without disturbing the timing adjustment.
If you test the spare at home you can set the timing on it, leave the clamp tight, and have a hot spare dizzy to swap in/out quickly already timed.

Mark

[DanHoug]

[do.dah]

[?Waldo?]

This is the first time I've looked at this thread because the title says that help is not needed.

[Captain Pike]

Wondering if a timing light is in your tool box. Easy way test the spark......
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LEARN TO SELF RESCUE
59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current.......................

[djkeev]

The wiring harness isn't at all hard to test using an ohm meter that beeps when the connection is good.
Granted, testing in the vehicle is a tad harder but with your interior as it is, you have easy access.

Download Kam's Digifant colored wiring diagrams and test each wire pin to pin.
I did this when mine was out and on the bench.
It takes a bit of time but it will confirm if your wires are whole from point to point.

Sadly you're 6 1/2 hours from me using the cursed Interstate highway system...... 8 1/2 running off freeways,
A tad far for a house call...... 🤷‍♂️

Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[DuncanS]

[djkeev]

[DuncanS]

I???? left the comma out? Me??? the grammar Nazi??

Thanks, Dave.

"Kam's Digifant colored wiring diagrams.........." Couldn't find it.

"Granted, testing in the vehicle is a tad harder but with your interior as it is, you have easy access."

One of the things that make testing wires tough is cross connections and artifact loads. For example, I have no idea what goes on inside the idle control unit, so there could be internal connections and impedance loads across wires. This means that every plug and connection has to be removed for a good test. Given the stiffness of the looms and old plastic connectors, this is a tough call. If all I do is paste another harness into the connections I care about including the ECU and abandon the existing one temporarily and leave those plugs inplace, there doesn't need to be any cutting and pasting.....I think. If for example COMMA I only plan to have it run briefly in open loop, what difference does it make if the existing O2 harness is in place, but not connected to the ECU?

Email response to my ECU/engine harness inquiry yesterday.

Hi Duncan,
12:50 PM (5 hours ago)

I am working on that very product and I'm hoping to have a completed harness within 8 weeks or so. I don't have pricing locked in yet but it should be
around $1000. I'm excited to get this going and please check back if you are interested.

Thanks, KYLE

So they are available with new plugs and so on, but $$$. This is a restoration. Me reworking my own is a maintenance effort with 32 yo plugs. I'd do all new marine Anchor wire, but lots of hours and how do I remove the existing wires from the plugs safely without damage?

Don't have to butcher any of the ECU/engine harnesses.. I just won't put in the ones which aren't directly related to getting it to add fuel, air and fire. Turned out not to be as easy as I thought as there are different variations and making sure I get the correct wires to the ECU take some exploration and there have been color changes over the years. So missed the BD dizzy order, but hell, it's been two months now, so what another couple of days? Besides, they are salting the bejazus out of the roads. Need to buy some lumber for a charity project, but...............

Gonna be cold out there tomorrow.

Duncan

[djkeev]

http://oldbluesblog.com/files/DigifantProTrainingManual_SingleSided.pdf

Page 47 for 1991
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[DuncanS]

I'm such a bonehead, I wonder how I have survived this long.

The ProTraaining manual is one of the best and to have it available, I used my special copier which can do two sides at a time. However, I decided for the sake of brevity and to save ink and paper, I would delete the pages which had wiring diagrams for cars earlier than mine, pages 43-46. Did it and collated them all and bound them. But somehow, pages 35-42 and 47-50 didn't make it. What?? Oh, well, now I know and can finish the binding and will put stiff covers on front and back so it can survive rough treatment in the engine bay.

In the mean time, I'm going back to the cold garage and measure impedance according to Kam on page 40 and 41. Have single side copied them for now.

Thank you so much, Dave, for once again saving my butt. (Wondering about the second comma? Look at this from Mr. Google and I swear I have not edited it. Names as copied. "If the name comes at the end of the sentence, the comma precedes the name: Stop jumping on the beds, boys. And if the name (or names) comes in the middle of the sentence, surround it with commas: What I said, Sean and Duncan, was to stop jumping on the beds!

D, the bonehead bed jumper.

[16CVs]

Duncan

Top quality new harnesses are available now, they come with all connectors and are plug and play.

I’ve been running a prototype for over and year and it smoothed out my ol so lovely DJ.

Stacy
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