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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:31 am Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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Stacy--sources?
Duncan |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:08 am Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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In PMing Stacy, I discovered he has one in stock for $800. A good deal. Unfortunately, Christmas and a couple of other things have sewed up the bottom of my pockets to a bit shallow, and it looks like I may have to (temporarily, I hope) give up on my New Year's resolution of restoration and not maintenance.
I have a pair of earlier harness and so I will be taking the best one and checking it out completely on the table with the Kam modification in the ProTraining manual to make it compatible with my '91 version. That will get me running with probably a dizzy Hall repair until such time as..................
A few more tests tomorrow to check out the dizzy in better detail as the wires do seem to be capable of sending a signal. Just not sure there isn't a corrupting signal with some other malfunction or cross feeding wire.
Duncan |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22639 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:42 am Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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?Waldo? wrote: |
This is the first time I've looked at this thread because the title says that help is not needed. |
Commas are beautiful things; surpassed only by semi-colons.
Duncan, I still smell the stench of a misbehaving distributor. _________________ .ssS! |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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A long time since the last post.
The existing harness--Checked it out and did a bunch of posts and got some great advice from a different topic. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=777074&highlight=
Went through the donor harness and found continuity throughout all the wires to the ECU plug. Modified the ECU relay socket wiring for the 4 pin later relay. In the mean time, I made a timing light so I could put the new dizzy in.
The holes were drilled for a tight fit with the wire tubes, but to make sure, I Dremeled them out a scoshe.. Vaselined up the cap and gooped some body putty in the holes in the ply. Super snug. The arm had a single screw and was rotated up against the alternator with wet epoxy which then cured.
So the plan was to stick in the new harness and try and see if the car worked. If not, then swap the dizzy.
But then it occurred to me in the middle of the night, why not just bypass the existing dizzy wires and run new ones direct to the ECU, ISCU, etc. while abandoning the ones in the existing harness. That should isolate them from any potential "crossover" corruption. It wouldn't eliminate a possible corrupted signal from another source which might make the ECU be unable to send a spark, but what did I have to lose, since I plan to get rid of the existing harness anyway?
Since it's a tad cool outside, I clipped the Hall sender plug wires and brought the plug inside to add new leads to be able to reach the various components. Set up the upstairs work/model/sewing table. In getting ready to remove the rubber plug boot, one of the wires came out of the boot. In pulling the boot, I discovered a butt connection which apparently wasn't crimped properly. This was really good news. Soldered up new shortish leads, reinstalled the boot and took it out to the car. Stripped back some of the existing connection wires and twisted them together. Blue tape over in case they happen to touch. This is going to be great, and I'll bet the car will start. If not, "time" the new dizzy with my gizmo, and I'm sure I'll be in business. If not then put in the donor harness.
Go all over the engine and triple check all the plugs. Relays in, check. Dizzy plug in, check. Halo coolant hoses back on, check. Rilly excited and jump in the front, Check the Bat--12.5, turn the key and crank the engine. Wah, was,wah,wah. Crap. Pull the center spark wire and hold it close to the engine. Crank it with my engine starter. Wah, was,wah,wah. Crap, no spark. Wait a minute--was the ignition on? No. turn on key and do it again. Wah, was,wah,wah, no spark. Crap. Did I screw up the dizzy wires? OK, so maybe I do need the long leads going to the EBU and other components. Quit for the day.
Wake up in the morning with a thought. Did I forget to plug in the................ Yes I had forgotten.
Neg 5º and trying to get the ground wire nut on without gloves ain't worth it. Will tackle it in the balmy neg 12 we will be having tomorrow. Or maybe wait until Sunday when we hit 37º above.
Duncan |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4764 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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May you have Joy in the Morning! _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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outcaststudios Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2015 Posts: 1732 Location: Maine
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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the timing 'light' is perfect! _________________ '88Doka JX td
'69 westy
(rip)couple bugs
(rip)three type III"s
(rip) '81 vanagon
a bunch of french stuff,and 9 motorcycles.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2573791 |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50332
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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I picked up a nearly new Sun timing light and meter at a yard sale for something like $20 a few years back. There must be millions of old timing light out there waiting to be saved by someone. |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4764 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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Wildthings wrote: |
I picked up a nearly new Sun timing light and meter at a yard sale for something like $20 a few years back. There must be millions of old timing light out there waiting to be saved by someone. |
well, i'm doing MY part to save old timing lights! 3 made in USA Craftsman and a SUN attached to the 'scope. so far. i'd pick another Craftsman dial back up if the price was right.
there's been a lot of crap made too. high latency stuff that fired too slow to be accurate, causing folk to set timing too far advanced. so it comes down to using good tools and TUNING a motor... listening, driving, making adjustments until it is right, not just at spec.
i keep the cover loose on my AFM for just this reason and infact just a couple days ago backed the tension one cog tighter because i was getting a rich miss right at startup before the O2 sensor kicked in. might do another cog after i live with it longer. tuning. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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Given the cold weather warning on thick oil and the cooler gasket, I've decided to wait until Sunday, 37º above, or Monday, Tues, and Wed the same, but 44º on Thurs. No rush and can complete some inside projects, like getting the speedo back together or winter sewing projects. Need to pick up 30 1x8 x 12 rough sawn pine at the mill next week. Nothing pressing until then. Work on the harness replacement, etc. Also never got the roof insulation pad in, so that and the head liner for a bit more heat might not be a bad idea as well.
Duncan |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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Log as of Sun, Feb 5th. Just to prove I was made of steel, I went out on Saturday at neg 24 and put the ECU O2 ground on and tightened the nut on the bolt without gloves. That was enough.
Today plugged the ECU back in and tried.
Wah, wah, wah, wah. Went around to the engine bay and saw this from trying to get a spark when there was no ECU plugged in.
Hmmm Wonder if this had anything to do with it.
Hooked everything back up including there Hall plug, cap with all 5 wires and...................You guessed it...........Wah, wah, wah, wah.
Beer time and cold fingers. Will toss in the new dizzy tomorrow and see if I get any better results.
Clearly, I'm not embarrassed to show how inept and dumb I am on all this. If the new dizzy doesn't produce any different results, then it will be a sad day. Out close to $300 in parts and will still be back to November as far as knowing much about a fix is concerned. But not to think about that now as I'll toss and turn all night. Let's just see what the morrow brings. Fingers crossed.
Duncan |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22639 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:29 am Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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I had to finish a p80 for someone this weekend who had no wheels and no money. Brutal in driveway in 10F weather , -14F night before but I got 1/3 down Saturday, then finished on Sunday in balmy 35F _________________ .ssS! |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32570 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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djkeev wrote: |
Yes I know...... pride cometh before the fall |
Twern't no pride in this mess, atal, atal. Just the fall.
Got the dizzy on the work table to set up the clamp and so on, but......... Note country of origin.
I wonder if the dizzy plug itself is OK. One of the connections was almost nonexistent and there was a butt underneath the boot, making the whole thing questionable. Since I have three harnesses, I'm going to cut one off from a donor and try that before going to the next step.
This time I didn't smell fuel, so sound/smells like no Hall signal got to the ECU and thus no injector firing. Isn't that the way the thing works? Hall sends a signal to the ECU who then sends the spark at the right time as well as the batch injector squirt?
Anyhoo, now mild, but bushed from some charity work and so will tackle it in the AM.
Duncan |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4764 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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the metal of the GP Group dist plug blades is too wide for the van plug to go onto. i had to taper mine with a Dremel in order for the plug to seat and make contact. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9918 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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I have a new JP Group and a new Factory Bosch to compare.
Yes, the 3 contact blades look thicker in the JP connector.
I was able to plug the harness in ok but removing it is a big pain.
Mark
DanHoug wrote: |
the metal of the GP Group dist plug blades is too wide for the van plug to go onto. i had to taper mine with a Dremel in order for the plug to seat and make contact. |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
I have a new JP Group and a new Factory Bosch to compare.
Yes, the 3 contact blades look thicker in the JP connector.
I was able to plug the harness in ok but removing it is a big pain.
Mark
DanHoug wrote: |
the metal of the GP Group dist plug blades is too wide for the van plug to go onto. i had to taper mine with a Dremel in order for the plug to seat and make contact. |
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Hmmm...More to those onto the variables pile. The current dizzy is a three YO BD one. The replacement is also BD but has a RF shield which the current one does not. So they could be light years apart in difference............well, maybe just slightly less than one AU. I haven't tried to put a 30+ YO Hall plug into the new dizzy yet, but the one I have fits the old BD unit just fine.
Tomorrow is D Day. I'll report back.
Just went out to the garage and checked. Yes, the OG Hall plug fits into the new dizzy and locks in place. Quite firm and good contact. Had to pull a bit to get it out, but it should be fine. Didn't check continuity while I was there with the old repaired plug as it was cold and it's late, but that 's the first step on the morrow.
Duncan |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4764 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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DuncanS wrote: |
Just went out to the garage and checked. Yes, the OG Hall plug fits into the new dizzy and locks in place. Quite firm and good contact. Had to pull a bit to get it out, but it should be fine. Didn't check continuity while I was there with the old repaired plug as it was cold and it's late, but that 's the first step on the morrow.
Duncan |
i'd spin the new dist with it hooked up and see if ya got spark!!!!! _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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Great idea and will do AFTER I check on plug continuity.
Duncan |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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There was/is continuity in the repaired Hall sender plug. Giggled the wires violently and no change in the tone or readings, So this narrows it down to either the dizzy or three failed ECUs. Pulled the 3 YO old BD dizzy and sat up the clamp for the new one. To test Mark's invaluable advice about how the rotor may not have the same machining and thus timing as the engagement tabs on the bottom, I set them up together.
The result.
The new one on the left is clearly advanced about 5º by eyeball over the one I've been using. So this means to get the same timing, I need to retard the new one by that amount compared with the one I have been using. Tomorrow I'll lay out the difference on paper and get the correct angle, so I can adjust my "timing light" accordingly. I'll also use my son's real timing light, but this should at least get the engine to fire and run for the fine tuning.
No, I didn't plug in the new dizzy and spin test it with my fingers, but will obviously do that before anytime else happens.
Bikini weather today--got up to 34º. Tomorrow--42º. Glove free work. Thanks, Al Gore, I need that with no heat in the shop.
Duncan |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50332
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:20 am Post subject: Re: No start, help needed |
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The rotor will not make any difference in the timing. What it could do is make it so the spark will not jump the gap well at the extremes of the timing curve leading to misfire and maybe excessive burning of the electrodes.
Your old rotor looks like it was damaged at some point in time. Have you checked its resistance? |
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