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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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Dan--Will do all that raised dizzy stuff tomorrow. You are right, I am assuming, but have not verified. Had a Hall problem about three years ago and bought a whole new dizzy that came with the sender installed. Very well may be Chinese junk.
Cap--Tried Mark's bypass harness as the first step. Hot wire to everything.
Duncan |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32592
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:44 am Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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Good point, Dave. I have all the above ignition parts. Will get spark plugs and the filters. Fuel filter is three years old. Maybe with a 32 year old uncleaned tank it should get changed twice a year with a 2 micron one down stream of the main filter. I PROMISE THIS YEAR TO START A REAL RESTORATION PROGRAM. After the tuneup plus, I'm going to put in a BRAND NEW ECU harness. AFM is three years old, Dizzy ditto, battery last summer and alt probably 8ish. Haven't tackled idle control module nor throttle body which will follow. Drop-the-dash comes too with cleaning up the factory wiring bird's nest. Real copper ground and positive buss bars behind the heat distribution cover for easy inspection and work access. Wires replaced and laced.
Duncan |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4777
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:50 am Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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highly likely he'll need dry plugs in order to get the motor to fire but i'd like to see spark on an extra plug lying on top of the engine first. speaking of which, once this sucker fires up i would change oil immediately as there's been plenty oil dilution from all the cranking. i wouldn't even go for a test drive.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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Good point, Dan.. My guess is at this point the total crank time accumulated is less than 30 seconds. It has either started or not and so I didn't keep trying. A dry new plug on top of the engine is a great idea.
Saw this- Does the coil body have to be grounded?
| letherer wrote: |
No spark? I would bolt down your coil correctly. I don't know if that's what grounds it, but in your pic, it's not bolted to the frame. |
I have fuel being injected as I can smell it. My assumption was this meant the Hall sender was in fact sending a signal to the ECU.
| tencentlife wrote: |
| If you have a cranks-but-no-spark situation, and wonder about the Hall generator (it's not a sensor), take an injector pair out and watch to see if they spray while cranking. If they do, the ECU is receiving the Hall signal. |
But it may be a corrupted signal and I'm going to do the raised dizzy test which Dan suggests. Currently dizzy is raised an inch, but not sure how to clamp it in that position.
| DanHoug wrote: |
go to the next level of components by testing spark via the Hall signal.
- pop the dist cap off and note the rotor position
- now remove the nut holding down the distributor clamp, NOT the one you loosen to adjust timing. lift the entire distributor and clamp up about an inch. nothing bad will happen, no washers drop etc but DO NOT CRANK the engine. repeat, DO NOT CRANK THE ENGINE. once more, DO NOT CRANK THE ENGINE or rilly rilly bad things will happen.
- take your fingers and rotate the rotor with the key on. you should see spark out of the coil lead. if so, put rotor back in the position of when you popped the cap off, seat the distributor and put clamp back on making sure the clamp goes all the way down to the block, and test for spark by cranking. note your engine may not start from wet fouled plugs so check spark, not necessarily starting.
report back. there's several reasons why you may not have spark at that point but we'll discuss that when we break into small groups. |
I read about this test before somewhere I think by mark/crazyvwvanman. His/that post had much more information in it about listening for clicking injectors and so on, but now I can't find it. Does anyone remember this post and where it might be found?
Plug choice?
Duncan |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4777
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
| Currently dizzy is raised an inch, but not sure how to clamp it in that position. |
you don't have to clamp it. you lay the coil wire next to the engine, turn the key on, hold the distributor up with one hand and turn the rotor with the other. remember, you are NOT going to crank the engine!!!
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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DuncanS
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Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
| remember, you are NOT going to crank the engine!!! |
OK, OK, I got it.
Tomorrow is busy with some charity work, but will get to it as soon as possible.
D |
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DuncanS
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Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:09 am Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
- take your fingers and rotate the rotor with the key on. you should see spark out of the coil lead. if so, put rotor back in the position of when you popped the cap off, seat the distributor and put clamp back on making sure the clamp goes all the way down to the block, and test for spark by cranking. note your engine may not start from wet fouled plugs so check spark, not necessarily starting.
report back. there's several reasons why you may not have spark at that point but we'll discuss that when we break into small groups. |
OK, no spark, nor noise of injectors clicking. Tried all three ECUs with voltage at coil of 12.6.
The New coil is just dangling. I have assumed that the case is not supposed to be grounded as it's all painted.
How about the aluminum heat distribution fins on the ECU? Should that be grounded?
And the other several reasons are??
Duncan |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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| If you are getting pulsing at the coil you should be getting spark and fuel. If the wave form is off this might not be true though, but it sounds like you have replaced most everything already. Maybe find a shop with a scope and let them have a go at it. If their is a short in your ignition harness to some other load vs to a ground, you might be getting a wacky wave from while still getting a pulsation. |
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DuncanS
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Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| If you are getting pulsing at the coil you, should be getting spark and fuel. If the wave form is off this might not be true though. If there is a short in your ignition harness to some other load vs to a ground, you might be getting a wacky wave form while still getting a pulsation. |
Sigh--This is what I have suspected although I couldn't find any of the involved wires shorting to something else or to ground. However, there are 16 wires going to the ECU Plug. I tested the power line, the ground, the lead to the coil, all three leads from the Hall sender to the ECU. That's 6, but there are another ten. And as you say, although they don't indicate being shorted and have continuity, that doesn't mean they aren't compromised in terms of the ECU seeing what is happening at the Hall sender and providing the correct wave form. Wave form? I thought this was an analog system relying on voltage numbers, not digital signals. However, let's say on a pulse, the Hall is sending out the correct 3.5 volts, but the ECU only sees 1.6. That is not going to be good. Is there a table which says what the ECU should be receiving, so I can check that with a VOM?
Duncan |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4777
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
| DanHoug wrote: |
- take your fingers and rotate the rotor with the key on. you should see spark out of the coil lead. if so, put rotor back in the position of when you popped the cap off, seat the distributor and put clamp back on making sure the clamp goes all the way down to the block, and test for spark by cranking. note your engine may not start from wet fouled plugs so check spark, not necessarily starting.
report back. there's several reasons why you may not have spark at that point but we'll discuss that when we break into small groups. |
OK, no spark, nor noise of injectors clicking. Tried all three ECUs with voltage at coil of 12.6.
The New coil is just dangling. I have assumed that the case is not supposed to be grounded as it's all painted.
How about the aluminum heat distribution fins on the ECU? Should that be grounded?
And the other several reasons are??
Duncan |
ok, then! you have a shower of sparks with a paper clip in the middle connector of the distributor plug dragging ground but none when twirling the rotor with the plug attached. all correct, right? this tells me your ECU able to receive the Hall generated conduction-to-ground signal and create a spark by lifting the ground on the #1 of the coil. your ECU and coil are working properly.
Occam's Razor says the Hall generator (see Chris, i can learn  in the distributor is bad. a really good test at this point is to plug a known good distributor into the dist plug, hold it in the open air and twirl the rotor to see if you have spark. if you have spark, case closed, your distributor is bad.
if the good distributor doesn't spark, test wiring with key on and check for at for at least 10 volts between the red wire (pin 3) of the dist plug and ground on the brown/black wire (pin 1). all checked with the plug unmated from the distributor.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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DuncanS
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Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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Thanks, Dan
Either a HUGE problem or Occum's razor leads to the whole thing being a bad dizzy. Decided after the last test, which I have been leaning towards since the beginning, is a bad wire because of the "fix" by rubbing my hands over the harness.
HOWEVER. Carefully pushed the dizzy back. I noticed that in the process of getting the nut on the clamp, the rotor had moved. Dizzy down and seated just not firmly bolted. Messed with the rotor and it moved freely. WHAT?
Made sure before lowering it, the rotor was in the correct angular position which had been marked with a piece of tape. Pulled the rotor and I could easily rotate the shaft freely in either direction. No bumpy feeling at all at any of the 360º. Line the rotor to the correct position as the nut is slowly being tightened. Rotor won't turn--good. With the rotor back on the shaft the cap won't fit. So not down. Line up the rotor in the position it was when lifted and run the nut down some. As I'm doing this I twist the shaft slightly + - 10 to see if there is a "sweet spot" No. Have it aligned and tighten nut a bit again. Rotor won't rotate. But cap won't fit either. Loosen nut a skosh, move rotor slightly and re firm the nut. No go. Again, and again, and again in slightly different positions. Scheisse, merde, alors, etc.
Now what?
Removed the stiff plastic loom from the Hall sender wires back to the main harness connection. They look clean and no obvious dings.
Duncan |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
Thanks, Dan
Either a HUGE problem or Occum's razor leads to the whole thing being a bad dizzy. Decided after the last test, which I have been leaning towards since the beginning, is a bad wire because of the "fix" by rubbing my hands over the harness.
HOWEVER. Carefully pushed the dizzy back. I noticed that in the process of getting the nut on the clamp, the rotor had moved. Dizzy down and seated just not firmly bolted. Messed with the rotor and it moved freely. WHAT?
Made sure before lowering it, the rotor was in the correct angular position which had been marked with a piece of tape. Pulled the rotor and I could easily rotate the shaft freely in either direction. No bumpy feeling at all at any of the 360º. Line the rotor to the correct position as the nut is slowly being tightened. Rotor won't turn--good. With the rotor back on the shaft the cap won't fit. So not down. Line up the rotor in the position it was when lifted and run the nut down some. As I'm doing this I twist the shaft slightly + - 10 to see if there is a "sweet spot" No. Have it aligned and tighten nut a bit again. Rotor won't rotate. But cap won't fit either. Loosen nut a skosh, move rotor slightly and re firm the nut. No go. Again, and again, and again in slightly different positions. Scheisse, merde, alors, etc.
Now what?
Removed the stiff plastic loom from the Hall sender wires back to the main harness connection. They look clean and no obvious dings.
Duncan |
Make sure you are rotating the rotor 180° as you push it down. You should feel it drop about 1/8" when in the correct position. |
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DanHoug
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Posts: 4777
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
| But cap won't fit either. |
there is nothing in lifting the distributor that affects the cap fitting or not. you are not getting the tab inside the rotor seated down into the slot in the top of the distributor shaft. it pushes down quite firmly. my guess is that you have the rotor 180 degrees off of where it should be to get the tab into the slot. that would also explain why the dist is not seating right.
don't pull the dist down with the nut! lube the o-ring and insert the dist shaft while wiggling the rotor back and forth, pushing down firmly but gentle if that makes sense as you have to overcome a spring setting in the recess of the drive gear. if the cogs just aren't meshing, turn the rotor shaft 180 degrees and try it again, all by hand, no pulling down with the nut. when right, the dist will seat that bracket against the engine THEN put the nut on.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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DuncanS
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Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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I didn't try to seat it with forcing the nut, just until the rotor stopped turning. This is a huge relief to know I imagined dropping the engine and splitting the case and................ Not that extreme, but rilly, rilly worried.
Tomorrow is busy with other stuff so...................
Duncan |
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DanHoug
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Posts: 4777
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:20 am Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
This is a huge relief to know I imagined dropping the engine and splitting the case and................ Not that extreme, but rilly, rilly worried.
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you're fine, you really can't damage anything just taking the distributor out. maybe watch for that little spring in the center of the drive gear to make sure it is in place and not lying crosswise. otherwise, fit the puzzle together and you'll see and feel when it is right. there's about 0.004" clearance between the dist cogs and the drive gear and that spring keeps things from chattering.
now, if you'd cranked the engine with the distributor out............
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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Tell you what. If I completely lose it on this project and decide to turn the car into a chicken coop AND a friend wants a boat anchor, I'll crank it, but a long way from that..................right now.
Suspect I may have lost a ground connection while doing the raised dizzy roulette test and so will repeat tomorrow in the snow/rain with the car in the garage where it's been since the hauler rolled it in right off the ramp on the day before Christmas Eve....20 days ago. And before that short run, it hadn't run for 4 weeks. Gitten' a mite old.
Duncan |
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bobbyblack 
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Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4349
Location: United States, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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The Hall is tripped by a magnet, right? Why pull the dizz up? Can't a small magnet on a stick be wiggled around by the pickup to emulate the dizz moving around? I'd sure want to try something like that before pulling the dizz up, ..anyway.. But now its too late for me to say "hold on a second!"
-bobby
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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crazyvwvanman
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: No start help needed |
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Such an easy and useful test, hard to mess up if done thoughtfully.
Pulling up the dizzy 1/4" is more than enough.
You don't even need to fully remove the 13mm nut that holds the clamp down to block.
The keyway on the end of the dizzy shaft merely needs to disengage from the drive gear in the block.
By leaving the 13mm nut slightly in place and only raising the dizzy slightly there is no way for anything to move out of place.
Parts stay where they belong, timing doesn't change, easy to put it right back down.
If only more people would do the test BEFORE they are dead in the water then they would know what to expect if the critical time comes.
Mark |
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