Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Front suspension/what am I doing wrong
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> HBB Off-Road Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
grizzlow
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2022
Posts: 7
Location: Texas
grizzlow is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:37 pm    Post subject: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Trying to assemble the front suspension on the buggy I'm putting together. What am I doing wrong that keeps the bottom portion of the carrier to be so far from the lower swing arm? Is it right that the upper swing arm comes out a smidge farther than the lower? Do I have the wrong parts? Thanks in advance for the advice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
77charger
Samba Member


Joined: November 12, 2005
Posts: 1492

77charger is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

I have tweeds and i snug the bottom then use shims to fill the gap.lower arm stick out further than top so shims fill the gap.
_________________
Click to view image
Bugpack 4 seater rail
2275 built by me
Auto linea alm case,82 dpr crank wedgemated by DK machine
cb 5.4 h beams,12 pound DPR f/w,Slr xv294cam,cb straight cuts,hpmx 44s,40x35 heads ported by brothers machine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
cbeck
Samba Member


Joined: January 14, 2014
Posts: 2494
Location: high ridge, mo
cbeck is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

Are you using the shim chart that tells you how many shims to put where after measuring the arm offset?
_________________
My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member


Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
jsturtlebuggy is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

Those look like Latest Rage trailing arms. There is a problem with them not being made correctly.
The lower arm should always stick out further then upper arm.
Offset between upper and lower arm with lower arm being out further should be between 5 to 9mm.
You are not the first with this problem.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Daddy o's 67
Samba Member


Joined: November 25, 2008
Posts: 118
Location: Lancaster, SC
Daddy o's 67 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

I had a problem with forged arms being to thick and not allowing the spindle to seat against them causing the front suspension to bind up.

I had to machine (grind) down the area of the trailing arm so the spindle could slide over it and seat correctly.

You can place a shim on the face of the trailing arm to see how much material would need to be removed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dustymojave
Samba Member


Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
dustymojave is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

grizzlow wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Do you have torsions in it?

The lower looks to be pulled in tight squishing the flange on the bushing. While the upper has a gap between the arm and the bushing.

I suspect a LOT of your trouble lies with what the arms are anchored to.

You might try swapping torsions top to bottom.

And why is the head of the top link pin sticking out of the link so far? How many link pin shims do you have in there and where? Should be 10 shims per link pin. 40 shims per car. Or is the top link pin simply not inserted all the way?
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
grizzlow
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2022
Posts: 7
Location: Texas
grizzlow is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
grizzlow wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Do you have torsions in it?

The lower looks to be pulled in tight squishing the flange on the bushing. While the upper has a gap between the arm and the bushing.

I suspect a LOT of your trouble lies with what the arms are anchored to.

You might try swapping torsions top to bottom.

And why is the head of the top link pin sticking out of the link so far? How many link pin shims do you have in there and where? Should be 10 shims per link pin. 40 shims per car. Or is the top link pin simply not inserted all the way?


There are leaf springs installed. The springs, when sandwiched together, have indentions machined into each end that the bolts on the adjusters at the center of the beam and the bolts on the trailing arms seat into. Because of this, there is no adjusting inward or outward at the point where the trailing arms go into the beam. But, it sounds like you have the same suspicions I do, which is why I posted the pictures of the bushings, because it looks like the upper trailing arm needs to go further into the beam to seat all the way against it, but the folks at Appletree, where I bought the parts, say the leaf springs are the same length top and bottom so it should not matter. Maybe I should swap them anyway and see.

As far as the link pins, because the outer face of the top trailing arm is further out than the lower, I could not reference any table to tell me how many shims to put on the top or bottom since all the tables assume the inverse situation. I knew there needed to be 10 on the top and bottom and the fewest on either end according to the tables was 2. Since I had the biggest gap on the bottom, I put 2 shims on the inside top and 8 on the inside bottom and figured I'd adjust from there. But, That's when I realized I still had a massive gap to fill on the bottom and just putting more shims on the bottom seemed like a bad solution. Anywho, that's why the top link pin sticks out further than the bottom, because it has 8 shims on the outside compared to 2 on the bottom.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
grizzlow
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2022
Posts: 7
Location: Texas
grizzlow is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

jsturtlebuggy wrote:
Those look like Latest Rage trailing arms. There is a problem with them not being made correctly.
The lower arm should always stick out further then upper arm.
Offset between upper and lower arm with lower arm being out further should be between 5 to 9mm.
You are not the first with this problem.


They are indeed Latest Rage. I hear the quality can be suspect and I'm wondering now if that's what my issue is. I looked around a lot for other options, but could not find trailing arms that weren't at least double the price, and IMHO, these weren't exactly cheep. Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
grizzlow
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2022
Posts: 7
Location: Texas
grizzlow is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

cbeck wrote:
Are you using the shim chart that tells you how many shims to put where after measuring the arm offset?


I did reference the chart, but the chart also says the gap should be on the top and my gap is on the bottom. Either way, since I knew there had to be 10 shims per link pin, and the fewest shims on either side of the trailing arm according to the chart was 2, I just put 2 on the inside top and 8 on the inside bottom and figured I'd adjust from there. But, the gap was still too big on the bottom. BTW, it's the same situation on both the driver and passenger side. Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
grizzlow
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2022
Posts: 7
Location: Texas
grizzlow is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

Daddy o's 67 wrote:
I had a problem with forged arms being to thick and not allowing the spindle to seat against them causing the front suspension to bind up.

I had to machine (grind) down the area of the trailing arm so the spindle could slide over it and seat correctly.

You can place a shim on the face of the trailing arm to see how much material would need to be removed.


That makes sense. I'd rather not, since I've already had the parts powder coated . But, if I can't find another solution, I may have to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
grizzlow
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2022
Posts: 7
Location: Texas
grizzlow is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

I think I'm going to start by swapping the upper and lower springs to see if I can't get the upper trailing arm closer to the body like dustymojave suggest and go from there.

BTW, thanks to everyone for the helpful responses. I'm new to all this and there aren't many VW/Buggy enthusiasts that I know of near me. It's nice to see all the all the support here! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sailtexas186548
Samba Member


Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
sailtexas186548 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

If the center grub screws are not in the right spot on the beam this can also happen. Does the other side have the same issue?
_________________
it's more fun loud and dirty
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
grizzlow
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2022
Posts: 7
Location: Texas
grizzlow is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

sailtexas186548 wrote:
If the center grub screws are not in the right spot on the beam this can also happen. Does the other side have the same issue?


Yeah. It's practically the same gap on both driver and passenger side
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Daddy o's 67
Samba Member


Joined: November 25, 2008
Posts: 118
Location: Lancaster, SC
Daddy o's 67 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

Can you flip your spring pack over and re-drill new dimples for the grub screws to lock in?

If so, I would drill the training arms first, seat the bushing and arms in all the way and then mark the spring pack where the inside grub screw needs to be dimpled.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sailtexas186548
Samba Member


Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
sailtexas186548 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

I fought this in the past with all stock parts when I was doing a cut/turn. you need to verify the center to center distance on the leaf packs between the Grubbs screw centers, as a first step. Once that’s confirmed you need to make sure the beam tubes and bushings are allowing the upper arms to seat all the way in, it’s possible that the upper arms could come in another 3/8 of an inch maybe a half inch, but right now it feels like the Grubbs screw is in the correct spot, but it’s not. Same thing for the lowers, make sure they’re actually seating with the Grubbs crew centered in the Grubbs crew spot on the torsion pack.

If all that is correct, and you still have the same problem, your arms are probably machine improperly
_________________
it's more fun loud and dirty
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
BFB
Samba Member


Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1689

BFB is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

Maybe some dipshit welded shock mounts to upper arms thus making them lower arms…
Kinda looks to me like the upper arm has more meat where it meats the spindle than what the lower arm has.
My money is on the arms being wrong than the old German torsion springs being off. Try a stock set of arms on one side and see how they fit in comparison
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.  
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dustymojave
Samba Member


Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
dustymojave is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

The torsion leaves are not original German leaves. They're aftermarket and they're roughly 1/2 length with the inner grubb screw dimples located slightly closer to the outboard dimples than stock leaves.

The arms are 1-piece forged arms. The shock mounts are forged in place as part of the arms. They're not welded on after.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dustymojave
Samba Member


Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
dustymojave is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

Another thought...

The links and spindles may be assembled upside down. Cool

That would account for the whole issue.

Fixing it would require disassembling the spindles from the links. but checking it would only require installing the spindles and links with the steering arms down instead of up. Maybe swap left to right with steering arms down?
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member


Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
jsturtlebuggy is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

The link carriers and spindles appear to be the HD models that Empi sells.
The thrust washer, shim, and cap are at the top (like there suppose to be) so they are not upside down.
To really see what happening the carriers and link pins need to be remove to see if the offset between upper and lower control arms can be seen.
If offset is correct, then I would think that carriers are machined incorrectly.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member


Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
jsturtlebuggy is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong Reply with quote

The link carriers and spindles appear to be the HD models that Empi sells.
The thrust washer, shim, and cap are at the top (like there suppose to be) so they are not upside down.
To really see what happening the carriers and link pins need to be remove to see if the offset between upper and lower control arms can be seen.
If offset is correct, then I would think that carriers are machined incorrectly.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> HBB Off-Road All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.