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grizzlow Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2022 Posts: 7 Location: Texas
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:37 pm Post subject: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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Trying to assemble the front suspension on the buggy I'm putting together. What am I doing wrong that keeps the bottom portion of the carrier to be so far from the lower swing arm? Is it right that the upper swing arm comes out a smidge farther than the lower? Do I have the wrong parts? Thanks in advance for the advice. |
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77charger Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2005 Posts: 1492
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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I have tweeds and i snug the bottom then use shims to fill the gap.lower arm stick out further than top so shims fill the gap. _________________ Click to view image
Bugpack 4 seater rail
2275 built by me
Auto linea alm case,82 dpr crank wedgemated by DK machine
cb 5.4 h beams,12 pound DPR f/w,Slr xv294cam,cb straight cuts,hpmx 44s,40x35 heads ported by brothers machine |
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cbeck Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014 Posts: 2494 Location: high ridge, mo
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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Are you using the shim chart that tells you how many shims to put where after measuring the arm offset? _________________ My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779 |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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Those look like Latest Rage trailing arms. There is a problem with them not being made correctly.
The lower arm should always stick out further then upper arm.
Offset between upper and lower arm with lower arm being out further should be between 5 to 9mm.
You are not the first with this problem. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Daddy o's 67 Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2008 Posts: 118 Location: Lancaster, SC
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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I had a problem with forged arms being to thick and not allowing the spindle to seat against them causing the front suspension to bind up.
I had to machine (grind) down the area of the trailing arm so the spindle could slide over it and seat correctly.
You can place a shim on the face of the trailing arm to see how much material would need to be removed. |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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Do you have torsions in it?
The lower looks to be pulled in tight squishing the flange on the bushing. While the upper has a gap between the arm and the bushing.
I suspect a LOT of your trouble lies with what the arms are anchored to.
You might try swapping torsions top to bottom.
And why is the head of the top link pin sticking out of the link so far? How many link pin shims do you have in there and where? Should be 10 shims per link pin. 40 shims per car. Or is the top link pin simply not inserted all the way? _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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grizzlow Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2022 Posts: 7 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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dustymojave wrote: |
Do you have torsions in it?
The lower looks to be pulled in tight squishing the flange on the bushing. While the upper has a gap between the arm and the bushing.
I suspect a LOT of your trouble lies with what the arms are anchored to.
You might try swapping torsions top to bottom.
And why is the head of the top link pin sticking out of the link so far? How many link pin shims do you have in there and where? Should be 10 shims per link pin. 40 shims per car. Or is the top link pin simply not inserted all the way? |
There are leaf springs installed. The springs, when sandwiched together, have indentions machined into each end that the bolts on the adjusters at the center of the beam and the bolts on the trailing arms seat into. Because of this, there is no adjusting inward or outward at the point where the trailing arms go into the beam. But, it sounds like you have the same suspicions I do, which is why I posted the pictures of the bushings, because it looks like the upper trailing arm needs to go further into the beam to seat all the way against it, but the folks at Appletree, where I bought the parts, say the leaf springs are the same length top and bottom so it should not matter. Maybe I should swap them anyway and see.
As far as the link pins, because the outer face of the top trailing arm is further out than the lower, I could not reference any table to tell me how many shims to put on the top or bottom since all the tables assume the inverse situation. I knew there needed to be 10 on the top and bottom and the fewest on either end according to the tables was 2. Since I had the biggest gap on the bottom, I put 2 shims on the inside top and 8 on the inside bottom and figured I'd adjust from there. But, That's when I realized I still had a massive gap to fill on the bottom and just putting more shims on the bottom seemed like a bad solution. Anywho, that's why the top link pin sticks out further than the bottom, because it has 8 shims on the outside compared to 2 on the bottom. |
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grizzlow Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2022 Posts: 7 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Those look like Latest Rage trailing arms. There is a problem with them not being made correctly.
The lower arm should always stick out further then upper arm.
Offset between upper and lower arm with lower arm being out further should be between 5 to 9mm.
You are not the first with this problem. |
They are indeed Latest Rage. I hear the quality can be suspect and I'm wondering now if that's what my issue is. I looked around a lot for other options, but could not find trailing arms that weren't at least double the price, and IMHO, these weren't exactly cheep. |
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grizzlow Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2022 Posts: 7 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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cbeck wrote: |
Are you using the shim chart that tells you how many shims to put where after measuring the arm offset? |
I did reference the chart, but the chart also says the gap should be on the top and my gap is on the bottom. Either way, since I knew there had to be 10 shims per link pin, and the fewest shims on either side of the trailing arm according to the chart was 2, I just put 2 on the inside top and 8 on the inside bottom and figured I'd adjust from there. But, the gap was still too big on the bottom. BTW, it's the same situation on both the driver and passenger side. |
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grizzlow Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2022 Posts: 7 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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Daddy o's 67 wrote: |
I had a problem with forged arms being to thick and not allowing the spindle to seat against them causing the front suspension to bind up.
I had to machine (grind) down the area of the trailing arm so the spindle could slide over it and seat correctly.
You can place a shim on the face of the trailing arm to see how much material would need to be removed. |
That makes sense. I'd rather not, since I've already had the parts powder coated . But, if I can't find another solution, I may have to. |
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grizzlow Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2022 Posts: 7 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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I think I'm going to start by swapping the upper and lower springs to see if I can't get the upper trailing arm closer to the body like dustymojave suggest and go from there.
BTW, thanks to everyone for the helpful responses. I'm new to all this and there aren't many VW/Buggy enthusiasts that I know of near me. It's nice to see all the all the support here! |
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sailtexas186548 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014 Posts: 423 Location: Kemah, Tx
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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If the center grub screws are not in the right spot on the beam this can also happen. Does the other side have the same issue? _________________ it's more fun loud and dirty |
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grizzlow Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2022 Posts: 7 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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sailtexas186548 wrote: |
If the center grub screws are not in the right spot on the beam this can also happen. Does the other side have the same issue? |
Yeah. It's practically the same gap on both driver and passenger side |
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Daddy o's 67 Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2008 Posts: 118 Location: Lancaster, SC
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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Can you flip your spring pack over and re-drill new dimples for the grub screws to lock in?
If so, I would drill the training arms first, seat the bushing and arms in all the way and then mark the spring pack where the inside grub screw needs to be dimpled. |
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sailtexas186548 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014 Posts: 423 Location: Kemah, Tx
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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I fought this in the past with all stock parts when I was doing a cut/turn. you need to verify the center to center distance on the leaf packs between the Grubbs screw centers, as a first step. Once that’s confirmed you need to make sure the beam tubes and bushings are allowing the upper arms to seat all the way in, it’s possible that the upper arms could come in another 3/8 of an inch maybe a half inch, but right now it feels like the Grubbs screw is in the correct spot, but it’s not. Same thing for the lowers, make sure they’re actually seating with the Grubbs crew centered in the Grubbs crew spot on the torsion pack.
If all that is correct, and you still have the same problem, your arms are probably machine improperly _________________ it's more fun loud and dirty |
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1689
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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Maybe some dipshit welded shock mounts to upper arms thus making them lower arms…
Kinda looks to me like the upper arm has more meat where it meats the spindle than what the lower arm has.
My money is on the arms being wrong than the old German torsion springs being off. Try a stock set of arms on one side and see how they fit in comparison _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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The torsion leaves are not original German leaves. They're aftermarket and they're roughly 1/2 length with the inner grubb screw dimples located slightly closer to the outboard dimples than stock leaves.
The arms are 1-piece forged arms. The shock mounts are forged in place as part of the arms. They're not welded on after. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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Another thought...
The links and spindles may be assembled upside down.
That would account for the whole issue.
Fixing it would require disassembling the spindles from the links. but checking it would only require installing the spindles and links with the steering arms down instead of up. Maybe swap left to right with steering arms down? _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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The link carriers and spindles appear to be the HD models that Empi sells.
The thrust washer, shim, and cap are at the top (like there suppose to be) so they are not upside down.
To really see what happening the carriers and link pins need to be remove to see if the offset between upper and lower control arms can be seen.
If offset is correct, then I would think that carriers are machined incorrectly. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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The link carriers and spindles appear to be the HD models that Empi sells.
The thrust washer, shim, and cap are at the top (like there suppose to be) so they are not upside down.
To really see what happening the carriers and link pins need to be remove to see if the offset between upper and lower control arms can be seen.
If offset is correct, then I would think that carriers are machined incorrectly. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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