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jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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 Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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This is what the offset between upper and lower control arms
Here is something else you need to look at when you get further along with setting up the suspension. Pictures are of Chenowth chassis with a Latest Rage 6in wider 10in shock tower beam with stock length trailing arms.
This is the clearance tie rod has at upper travel stop ( without urethane bump stop)
Steering straight ahead
Steering turned to the right
This may be a problem depending on what chassis you have
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
The torsion leaves are not original German leaves. They're aftermarket and they're roughly 1/2 length with the inner grubb screw dimples located slightly closer to the outboard dimples than stock leaves.
The arms are 1-piece forged arms. The shock mounts are forged in place as part of the arms. They're not welded on after. |
Tf you mean “forged” ? You mean to say that these things are cast? I guess that’d explain the grind marks where a cast seam would be…
| dustymojave wrote: |
Another thought...
The links and spindles may be assembled upside down. 
That would account for the whole issue.
Fixing it would require disassembling the spindles from the links. but checking it would only require installing the spindles and links with the steering arms down instead of up. Maybe swap left to right with steering arms down? |
Im pretty sure that’s not possible as the tab / brace on the links would go the wrong direction and the spindles would hit it as well. Pretty sure it’d be waaay more janky than what his are. ( i think i made this mistake once when rebuilding a set and was blatantly obvious right away)
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Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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If the parts we're talking about were "Cast", they would have a narrow mold separation line, with no need to cut away material. "Forged" parts such as these have to have the excess material cut off. Thus the "grind marks" you refer to. Just as my forged Crescent wrench has such grind marks around the sides. You can google forging vs casting if you doubt me. Or just read the ads for these parts.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
| If the parts we're talking about were "Cast", they would have a narrow mold separation line, with no need to cut away material. "Forged" parts such as these have to have the excess material cut off. Thus the "grind marks" you refer to. Just as my forged Crescent wrench has such grind marks around the sides. You can google forging vs casting if you doubt me. Or just read the ads for these parts. |
I’m just questioning that they are forged and not cast considering that i doubt latest rage owns a forge large enough to make the part which would mean they’d have to sub it out and doubt demand for the arms are high enough for them to get a good deal on quantity so you’d think true forged arms would have a much higher price point. Also if their that great , as in being a high quality “ forged” part , that they wouldn’t be known to have “ a problem with being made incorrectly “. And there’s lots of cast parts that the mold separation line is ground off of, and thickness of said line doesnt mean some dipshit dressing the part doesnt get carried away.
These arms being that far off, i dont think has anything to do with the springs or spindles or even the tubes being different widths, all of that would make itself known pretty easily. looks to me like the arms are made wrong and for supposedly being a high quality “forged” part , they seem to be more of a poor quality cast part. Thats what I’m meaning
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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OK. Think what you will. Latest Rage does not manufacture the arms themselves. No they don't have any forging equipment. They have them manufactured for them.
I've watched these same arms being used on Class 5 Open race cars quite successfully and seen them take some serious abuse. Like slamming into a K-Rail wall at about 40mph and bending the 1/4" wall beam, but not the arms.
Not that recently made arms cannot have dimensional problems from machining errors. If you're a regular reader on here, you might remember my own thread ranting about how my brand new Latest Rage forged Combo spindles had a machining error. The hole in the Combo king pins were oversized for the link pin bushings. ANY link pin bushings. Machining error. An error not made by Latest Rage themselves. But it was an error in their product. This MIGHT be a machining error in their product. But it also might not be. But it was NOT a forging error.
But working remotely here, I can't be certain what the problem on the car in this thread is or is not. I refuse to flat out blame any company offhand. I need to know for sure before I condemn their product. After all, I've dealt with Latest Rage Combo spindles that were machined correctly. I've only encountered the one pair that were wrong.
So tell us BFB...What brand of aftermarket arms are on your car? Foddrill? If so I've encountered Foddrill parts that had machining errors. And they cost about 4 times as much as the Latest Rage parts.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
OK. Think what you will. Latest Rage does not manufacture the arms themselves. No they don't have any forging equipment. They have them manufactured for them.
I've watched these same arms being used on Class 5 Open race cars quite successfully and seen them take some serious abuse. Like slamming into a K-Rail wall at about 40mph and bending the 1/4" wall beam, but not the arms.
Not that recently made arms cannot have dimensional problems from machining errors. If you're a regular reader on here, you might remember my own thread ranting about how my brand new Latest Rage forged Combo spindles had a machining error. The hole in the Combo king pins were oversized for the link pin bushings. ANY link pin bushings. Machining error. An error not made by Latest Rage themselves. But it was an error in their product. This MIGHT be a machining error in their product. But it also might not be. But it was NOT a forging error.
But working remotely here, I can't be certain what the problem on the car in this thread is or is not. I refuse to flat out blame any company offhand. I need to know for sure before I condemn their product. After all, I've dealt with Latest Rage Combo spindles that were machined correctly. I've only encountered the one pair that were wrong.
So tell us BFB...What brand of aftermarket arms are on your car? Foddrill? If so I've encountered Foddrill parts that had machining errors. And they cost about 4 times as much as the Latest Rage parts. |
No need to get so offensive, your acting like by me saying i have doubts about those arms being correct that I’m talking shit about your wife, not to mention splitting hairs between them being forged wrong or machined wrong. Calm down.
And none of us can say for sure nor are saying for sure its one thing or another. I just stated , from process of elimination and my experience putting beams together, that its most logical to me that its the arms especially considering it was said they are known for having issues. Your the one that had to chime in to try and educate me on forging and act like your defending your lover. I got nothing for or against them nor do i give shit. Why dont you stick to what the thread is about and quit making it personal
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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Another acting all touchy on here. What's up with so many taking everything said as a personal affront? Damn!
There was NOTHING in what I said that was personal or offensive or related to anybody's lover. In fact, I referred to my own trouble with items from the same brand having machining issues to agree that might be the issue here.
WTF man?
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
Another acting all touchy on here. What's up with so many taking everything said as a personal affront? Damn!
There was NOTHING in what I said that was personal or offensive or related to anybody's lover. In fact, I referred to my own trouble with items from the same brand having machining issues to agree that might be the issue here.
WTF man?
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You need to read posts better before you reply. I didn’t say that you said something about someone’s lover, i did say that you are acting so defensive about the latest rage arms that its like i said something about your wife or lover and your defending them.
Maybe if your getting multiple ppl taking what you say personally, MAYBE its not every body else, maybe its actually you and how your acting. Think about it, I know it’s a crazy idea but …..
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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DeathRay64
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2019
Posts: 217
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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| BFB wrote: |
| You need to read posts better before you reply. |
Maybe take your own advice?
From what I can tell the upper leaf springs are too long or the grub screws aren't seated properly.
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Making VW's and America great again. |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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| DeathRay64 wrote: |
| BFB wrote: |
| You need to read posts better before you reply. |
Maybe take your own advice? |
Thank you.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
| DeathRay64 wrote: |
| BFB wrote: |
| You need to read posts better before you reply. |
Maybe take your own advice? |
Thank you. |
How about an example of what you mean that i misread ? Otherwise your just bumping your gums
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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| DeathRay64 wrote: |
| BFB wrote: |
| You need to read posts better before you reply. |
Maybe take your own advice?
From what I can tell the upper leaf springs are too long or the grub screws aren't seated properly. |
Yeh… it’s the leaf springs holding the upper arm out because there’s a huuuge gap between the arm - bushing- tube. You realize how far out the upper arm would have to be to be that far past the lower? OP would have to remove the entire lip of the bushing to get the upper arm in as far as it need to go. Makes complete sense. But hey your entitled to your opinion and offering your advise.
Speaking of advise, while your getting offended at me telling you your wrong, why dont you elaborate on me following my own advice and what i misread, or were you just trying to stroke dusty so he’ll like you and be your friend ? See how i did when i told dusty that no one ever said he said something about someone’s wife? and then he got his panty’s wadded up even more than when i said those arms were junk and he felt he needed to defend latest rage’s integrity … fucking mountain out of a mole hill…..
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
|
| Back to top |
|
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DeathRay64
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2019
Posts: 217
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Front suspension/what am I doing wrong |
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| BFB wrote: |
| DeathRay64 wrote: |
| BFB wrote: |
| You need to read posts better before you reply. |
Maybe take your own advice?
From what I can tell the upper leaf springs are too long or the grub screws aren't seated properly. |
Yeh… it’s the leaf springs holding the upper arm out because there’s a huuuge gap between the arm - bushing- tube. You realize how far out the upper arm would have to be to be that far past the lower? OP would have to remove the entire lip of the bushing to get the upper arm in as far as it need to go. Makes complete sense. But hey your entitled to your opinion and offering your advise.
Speaking of advise, while your getting offended at me telling you your wrong, why dont you elaborate on me following my own advice and what i misread, or were you just trying to stroke dusty so he’ll like you and be your friend ? See how i did when i told dusty that no one ever said he said something about someone’s wife? and then he got his panty’s wadded up even more than when i said those arms were junk and he felt he needed to defend latest rage’s integrity … fucking mountain out of a mole hill….. |
You are the one with the wedgie... Yet you never quoted what specifically offended you.
I read his posts a couple of times and I couldn't find anything remotely combative.
Show me and maybe I'll change my mind. This is weird.
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