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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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 Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| iowegian wrote: |
| Hence the reason for having "AGREED/GUARANTEED VALUE" insurance. |
It's fraud plain and simple.
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 5969
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
No I guess my real bone is somebody with a $9500 Super Beetle that thinks it's worth $17,000 because they watch some TV auction show, then they insist that the insurance company should give them $20,000 in a total loss claim. |
Here's the part I think you're missing: The insurance premium is based on what you state the value is. If they say their super is worth 17k, their premium is going to be more than if it was $9500. That goes against the typical insurance practice of devaluing everything so they can make the lowest possible payout. But here, if your Plymouth horizon has a crack in the glass that looks like Jesus, you can insure it for half a mill, so long as you're ready to pay.
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| iowegian wrote: |
| Hence the reason for having "AGREED/GUARANTEED VALUE" insurance. |
It's fraud plain and simple. |
How do you figure? I'm curious
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Mr_Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2020
Posts: 2
Location: Fall River, MA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| I recently put in a claim after a vandalism incident on my 67 Beetle. I have a $20k policy thru Haggerty. They responded FAST.. paid FAST... zero issue. and no deductible... $20k seemed to be the right number for me, without extra appraisal or hassle. |
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hobthebob
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2021
Posts: 375
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| I can't get Hagerty on my Beetle since it's my daily driver. Hagerty will NOT cover daily drivers, so I got my car smogged (it passed!) in AZ, and insured it with Geico. |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69829
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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Hagerty won't do any number you pull out of your butt though, they have to approve the value.
I believe this is why they have data from other known sales / auctions / etc.
I gave them a number on my 23-Window and they had to check into it and get back to me, it was not "no questions asked".
It was very quick and my value was not unreasonable at the time.
Now it would be super low 
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baldessariclan
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 1385
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:35 am Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| iowegian wrote: |
| Hence the reason for having "AGREED/GUARANTEED VALUE" insurance. |
It's fraud plain and simple. |
The legal requirement in most (all?) states to carry liability insurance on your own vehicles is effectively a bit of a fraud as well.
E.g., I've been hit 5 times over the years, and have never been able to collect a single dime of liability insurance money from any of those occurrences -- these were all hit-and-run types, uninsured kids just out of high school (w/ no appreciable $$ to sue for), older similarly uninsured and penniless deadbeats, etc. Heck, the last time was felons fleeing police during a high-speed car chase, and turns out they didn't carry any liability insurance either, go figure...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8316888&highlight=#8316888
And it's not just me. Couple of my kids got hit recently by non-insured drivers, plus another 3 co-workers over past year as well, and etc., etc. - ugh.
So yeah, while I don't completely disagree w/ the legal requirement to carry liability insurance on my own vehicles, I think it's still a notably flawed and fraudulent system overall. If you're counting on other folks' insurance to cover your costs for accidents they've caused, better think twice -- there are a LOT of uninsured deadbeats cruising (& crashing) around out there...
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1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver
baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt... |
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sportin-wood
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2010
Posts: 2009
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:54 am Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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I recently had a high speed chase almost take out my stalled project. Uninsured drunk driver went through my privacy fence and slammed into my carport. Luckily homeowner's insurance covered the fence, carport & tool cabinet repair & replacement.
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| esde wrote: |
| vwracerdave wrote: |
No I guess my real bone is somebody with a $9500 Super Beetle that thinks it's worth $17,000 because they watch some TV auction show, then they insist that the insurance company should give them $20,000 in a total loss claim. |
Here's the part I think you're missing: The insurance premium is based on what you state the value is. If they say their super is worth 17k, their premium is going to be more than if it was $9500. That goes against the typical insurance practice of devaluing everything so they can make the lowest possible payout. But here, if your Plymouth horizon has a crack in the glass that looks like Jesus, you can insure it for half a mill, so long as you're ready to pay. |
Insurance is to pay for what YOU tear up.
If I'm at fault and crash your $9500 Super Beetle I don't have any issues with my insurance paying you the $9500 but you can go pound sand if you think I'm giving you $20,000 just because you have a delusional fantasy that your car is worth $20,000. It's fraud.
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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baldessariclan
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 1385
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| Insurance is to pay for what YOU tear up. |
Yeah, it's a nice theory -- except for when it doesn't actually pan out that way in real life a lot of the time. The "liability insurance required by law" system has so far worked out exactly 0% of the time for me personally, plus a lot of my family and friends as well (ref. earlier post above). Not that I'm bitter or anything...
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| If I'm at fault and crash your $9500 Super Beetle I don't have any issues with my insurance paying you the $9500 but you can go pound sand if you think I'm giving you $20,000 just because you have a delusional fantasy that your car is worth $20,000. It's fraud. |
And that's another reason why I find the "agreed upon value" policies Hagerty offers an attractive option. If some jackwagon (who just happens to actually carry liability insurance - ?!?) slams into my VW and burns it to the ground, chances are it's going to take a lot more $$$ than what their crappy liability insurance is going to be willing to pay, for me to eventually come up with a replacement that's truly equivalent to what I lost. And since said jackwagons seem intent on slamming into my cars at a roughly 5-year interval, on average, an annual payment of something like $300 for a potential payout of say $15k to $20k (once again, to build up a new car which is truly equivalent to the old), doesn't seem like all that bad a risk to me.
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1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver
baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt... |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 5969
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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if you choose a straight "liability" policy, your coverage is for potential damage you inflict.
if you choose "full coverage" you are paying to cover your own car as well. An "uninsured motorist" clause will do somewhat the same thing.
State law generally states that you must have "at least" liability with some minimum limits. The people that are driving uninsured are the problem, not the policy. It's bitten me in the ass too, I had a 69 bronco totaled by an uninsured driver in a stolen car. Big loss, no way to collect. Now everything worth a bit is covered in some way.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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In our part of the world there is an unsatisfied judgements fund with the government that you can apply to for restitution in the case of the guilty party not having insurance. It is funded by fines levied by the courts for drunk driving and traffic violation convictions. I have not tried to access this fund myself but I know it's there if I need it.
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baldessariclan
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 1385
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:31 am Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| esde wrote: |
| State law generally states that you must have "at least" liability with some minimum limits. The people that are driving uninsured are the problem, not the policy. |
I think the policy itself is a large part of the problem as well, since it lacks any effective “teeth” — i.e. has no real significant incentives to deter penniless deadbeats & other similar a-holes from driving w/out insurance.
Sure, you can try taking them to court (at your own time and expense), but all the judge is going to do is fine them (which they won’t bother paying), and/or suspend their license (which they couldn’t care less about either - they’ll keep on driving). It’s not likely they’ll be facing potential jail time or anything like that, unfortunately.
So what the policy actually does is effectively punish law-abiding folks by forcing them to pay for liability insurance (which they’ll likely never need, especially if they’re reasonably cautious & considerate drivers), and then also often foot the entire bill for accidents caused by other folks as well.
So once again, liability insurance laws are a nice concept in theory, but in actual practice are often largely ineffective and unfair (at least in this country, anyway). It’s a significantly flawed and fraudulent system, in my opinion…
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1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver
baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt...
Last edited by baldessariclan on Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:43 am Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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You have a fundamental lack of understanding of what liability insurance is and who it covers. It protects your other assets from being taken by others if you cause damage or injury. It offers no protection of your assets ftom damage caused by others
These things all vary by state, so these discussions often derail.
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iowegian
Samba Curmudgeon
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 9829
Location: Somewhere between Dubuque and Keokuk
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:37 am Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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I now have a better understanding of the whole situation------
the Insurance company is a scammer and I perpetrate fraud by paying them money that they DEMAND. |
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baldessariclan
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 1385
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:43 am Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
You have a fundamental lack of understanding of what liability insurance is and who it covers. It protects your other assets from being taken by others if you cause damage or injury. It offers no protection of your assets ftom damage caused by others
These things all vary by state, so these discussions often derail. |
I understand how liability insurance works, and would personally carry it even if it wasn't a legal requirement. And I understand the theory of why they do make it a legal requirement in most, if not all, states as well.
My issue/beef is with the fact that they don't back up that legal requirement w/ any meaningful incentives and/or punishments for folks who choose to break the law by not carrying it. And if that's the way it's going to be, I think it ought to just be a voluntary choice as to whether you carry it or not, not a legal requirement. That's the flaw or "fraud" in the system IMO, at least as it stands today.
But you're right, we do digress a bit on all this...
My take on how much insurance to carry is that you should have enough liability coverage to pay for any medical and/or property damage you cause in an accident where you're at fault, and also enough collision, "agreed-upon value", or whatever coverage to pay for damage to your car/property caused by an uninsured motorist at who is at fault in an accident. Note that your own liability policy usually carries an "uninsured motorist" clause, which serves to help pay for you and your passengers' medical expenses, if you are injured in an accident caused by an uninsured motorist (but doesn't cover damage to your car or property - that's what collision / "agreed-value" coverage is for).
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1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver
baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt... |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:37 am Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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Every state has different laws regarding auto insurance.
Insurance statistics say 40% of the people on the road do not have insurance even tho they are required by law to have it. In Oklahoma you can be self insured if you post a security bond showing you have the funds to pay in an accident.
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69829
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| baldessariclan wrote: |
| So what the policy actually does is effectively punish law-abiding folks by forcing them to pay for liability insurance (which they’ll likely never need, especially if they’re reasonably cautious & considerate drivers), and then also often foot the entire bill for accidents caused by other folks as well.… |
Spoiler: No one is, I see "considerate" drivers creating dangerous situations almost daily by trying to be polite instead of following the laws of the road.
Anyways...Even if you think you are, you can get blamed or put on the hook for damaged in multiple cars accidents that are not your fault.
Someone hits you, you hit someone else, you could be liable.
Especially if the police report isn't accurate with what actually occurred... spoiler again, there is a very good chance it will be the officer's opinion and not factual or even necessarily logical.
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| esde wrote: |
| vwracerdave wrote: |
No I guess my real bone is somebody with a $9500 Super Beetle that thinks it's worth $17,000 because they watch some TV auction show, then they insist that the insurance company should give them $20,000 in a total loss claim. |
Here's the part I think you're missing: The insurance premium is based on what you state the value is. If they say their super is worth 17k, their premium is going to be more than if it was $9500. That goes against the typical insurance practice of devaluing everything so they can make the lowest possible payout. But here, if your Plymouth horizon has a crack in the glass that looks like Jesus, you can insure it for half a mill, so long as you're ready to pay. |
Insurance is to pay for what YOU tear up.
If I'm at fault and crash your $9500 Super Beetle I don't have any issues with my insurance paying you the $9500 but you can go pound sand if you think I'm giving you $20,000 just because you have a delusional fantasy that your car is worth $20,000. It's fraud. |
Well, your insurance company decides to pay them $20,000 because if they don't the insurance company of the owner of that "20k" car will have to fork it out as uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage. One part of having your auto insurance is agreeing that you will cooperate with your insurance company (even while they do that).
Look, insurance is just a group payment plan. The total of collected premiums from all insured motorist is about 125% of what they pay out in claims. The rest is about cost of assessing risk and cost of avoiding being ripped off by false claims. Insurance companies, in large part, make profit the same way banks do, by investing the money they hold in the time between getting it and paying it back out.
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:10 am Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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Nicely summed up above.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: How much insurance? |
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Well sir, you paint a very rosy picture of the honesty and integrity of the insurance industry! There was a time that they had to publicly publish their quarterly earnings just like the banks. I recall them running neck and neck with the most profitable business at that time. Then they applied for and received exemption from that law and I have not seen their profit margins since.
Yes I am sure that they would never overcharge or under pay anyone! 🙄
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