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Engine angled a touch too high ...
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:25 pm    Post subject: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Perhaps I'll start a thread on the rusty 56 restore ... But for now, a question.

I welded in new rear wings, fitting the properly to each fender. Fender on fender off fender x10 ... Very careful to make sure everything fit.

Here's a photo of the rear end w the fenders on.

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Next up was to put the engine in so that I could tack in the left and right shelves and the rear valance in order to get the seal in it's proper place.

Engine was slightly off center but I was able to fix that (I think) with a strap and some rewelding. It's awfully close now but I could still try to move the body slightly from left to right if needed.


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My main issue now is the height of the engine. It seems like it's angled upward towards the rear. The rear tin is sticking out above the top of the apron.

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New front and rear transmission mounts. Could they be angling the engine somehow?

Also, I had the torsion bars out and I'm pretty sure I got them back in properly ... Is the possibility of them being off causing the body to be too high or low and effecting engine height? I don't think it would, but 🤷‍♂️

Could it be a weight thing? I still have a pretty rough angle on those rear axles. With full weight in the rear will that force things to be in proper position, engine wise?

I'm sure I'll add things here as I think of them. Any help would be appreciated.

Happy new year everyone!
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Here are some other photos of my progress ...
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tcoop1100
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

I don't think there's any way torsion bars or weight would affect engine position. Do you have body mount pads and pan-to-body seal in?
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:04 am    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Yes to both of those.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Probably at the nose cone mount. What is in the car, split or tunnel trans?

Get some pictures up, so that we can see the mounts and body parts holding it all together.
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

I may be on to something here. Are the rear body mounts different heights on later beetles?

Here's what I put in: https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111809085CC

Do I need to remove the mounts and weld them on an inch or so lower in order to raise the rear?
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

VW_Jimbo wrote:
Probably at the nose cone mount. What is in the car, split or tunnel trans?

Get some pictures up, so that we can see the mounts and body parts holding it all together.


Split trans. I'll add some photos.
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

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esde
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Is this the correct pan for the car?
Is this the original transmission for the car? If not, what changed?
If it's a later tunnel trans, did you use the correct nosecone and front mount?
How much of the rear clip has been replaced, and what measures did you take to "realign" everything?
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

esde wrote:
Is this the correct pan for the car?
Is this the original transmission for the car? If not, what changed?
If it's a later tunnel trans, did you use the correct nosecone and front mount?
How much of the rear clip has been replaced, and what measures did you take to "realign" everything?


Thanks for the reply.

It's not *the* original transmission, but it's a rebuilt split case correct for this period, of course.

#1287570 is on the tunnel which matches the title and birth certificate of a 9/56 beetle.

Rear wings/bumper brackets on both sides were replaced, as was apron. I used two of the bolt holes/fender nuts and a long bolt to secure the wings to the existing fender bolt holes on the body and along with lots of measurements, marked the body, then did my cutting. You can see from the photo above of the rear that the fenders fit just about perfect.

🤷‍♂️

Could it be a result of not having enough weight back there yet for everything to settle tonita proper position? Check out the angle of the wheels. Perhaps I need to get it on the ground and roll it a bit.


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It leans to the left cause rear left tires only holds air for a few hrs ...
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esde
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

if everything is assembled correctly, the suspension and weight of the car will have no bearing on how the engine sits relative to the body
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Right ...

Based on the photos I posted to my mounts look correct?
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

I think it's the front transmission mount. Can anyone tell me if it looks correct, upsidedown, etc?

The tunnel is perfectly level. Then I put level on trans and t immediately angles up.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Could just be the angle of the picture, but this looks a little low to me?
That opening in the shock mount sheet metal is where you insert the shock bolt, so that seems like it should be a bit higher.
My 54' came to me with a similar problem, maybe not quite so bad, but the apron was about 3/4" too low for the tail pipe to pass under, engine seals were almost 1" from hitting the engine sheet metal.
Considering where I was at that point in assembly I just decided to 'shim' the body back there by adding a little extra rubber at the body mount and doubling the thickness of the pan gasket under the rear seat area. about 1/2" -9/16" extra bushing gave me about 1" at the rear apron.
Not sure if that shortcut would get you enough? We've seen several of these types of issues lately, but I'd guess it's rarely anything to do with the pan and hardware if you have the proper trans and mounts.
Must be the body work, it's REALLY easy to get that wrong.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

gzaharatos67 wrote:
I may be on to something here. Are the rear body mounts different heights on later beetles?
Here's what I put in: https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111809085CC
Do I need to remove the mounts and weld them on an inch or so lower in order to raise the rear?

I did notice the rectangular shock bolt hole on the right side of the car. I'm guessing this is the replacement pane as it looks like the WW part. It looks like the left side of your car has the round hole for the shock bolt. If it is original you could measure that mount height to see if the right side matches and make adjustments as necessary.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Is that a wedge in the lower passenger door?

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This looks wonky. Something is wrong. The shim and the body mount are not right. It may be that the body is not sitting correctly.
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Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look.


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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

VW_Jimbo wrote:
Is that a wedge in the lower passenger door?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This looks wonky. Something is wrong. The shim and the body mount are not right. It may be that the body is not sitting correctly.


Yes the passenger door has a thin shim to push it slightly back. The gap was too thin in the front and much much to large in the back.

If I add extra rubber pad or shim to the body mount to raise it, that will pull the lower corner further away from the door and widen that gap, no? It would solve the problem of raising the rear end a tiny bit ... But if it pulls the door jam/b pillar away that'd be no good.

Both side body mounts were replaced. Og ones were rusted terribly.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

VW_Jimbo wrote:
Is that a wedge in the lower passenger door?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This looks wonky. Something is wrong. The shim and the body mount are not right. It may be that the body is not sitting correctly.


I agree.
I had to shim this mount 3/8" on my project to get everything else to play nice. Not ideal but beats having to cut and weld things at this point. I've found a ton of variation in that repair panel, it's made in a factory far from any VW's and the "spec" that parts are made to is mere suggestion.
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

esde wrote:
VW_Jimbo wrote:
Is that a wedge in the lower passenger door?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This looks wonky. Something is wrong. The shim and the body mount are not right. It may be that the body is not sitting correctly.


I agree.
I had to shim this mount 3/8" on my project to get everything else to play nice. Not ideal but beats having to cut and weld things at this point. I've found a ton of variation in that repair panel, it's made in a factory far from any VW's and the "spec" that parts are made to is mere suggestion.


Ok, I will try a shim first and see if that helps and what it does to the door gap. I was considering cutting the mount and welding it back 1/4 or so lower.

The listing on WW says the mounts may need to be adjusted ... Ughh.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

gzaharatos67 wrote:
esde wrote:
Is this the correct pan for the car?
Is this the original transmission for the car? If not, what changed?
If it's a later tunnel trans, did you use the correct nosecone and front mount?
How much of the rear clip has been replaced, and what measures did you take to "realign" everything?


Thanks for the reply.

It's not *the* original transmission, but it's a rebuilt split case correct for this period, of course.


Looked through my 11/1956 oval pictures

Conclusion:

The nosecone of your transmission doesn't look like my original one.

Yours on the left, my 11/1956 orginal nosecone and transmission on the right


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-> no sheet metal issue
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