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Engine angled a touch too high ...
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splitjunkie
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

I have no ideal what your nose cone is for but it is definitely wrong. The one on the right posted above is correct.

Here is a picture of the correct one from my gallery. Same as the one on the right.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Yours isn't for a VW Bus either. The VW bus continued with the rubber doughnut mount that the split window bugs had, and that isn't what you have

My only thought is that I believe they continued the split case trans into the early 60's for the standards and since the front mount on the pan changed in '61 for the tunnel trans, maybe they had a different style of nosecone to allow a split case to be installed on a pan made for a tunnel trans and you somehow ended up with one.
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Does this look like the nose cone I have on currently?

https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211301297
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b-man
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

gzaharatos67 wrote:
Does this look like the nose cone I have on currently?

https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211301297

No, read the description again. Beetles up through 1952, buses up through 1959, my 1956 bus uses that round donut rubber mount.

It looks like you have a one year only 1960 split case transaxle. That was the year they moved the shift rod higher in order to tip the entire drivetrain upward in the rear by 2 degrees.’the reason for this change was to change the rear camber angle, this lowered the differential in relation to the chassis. At the same time they reshaped the frame horns as well, making the 1960 chassis a one year only unit as well.

Using that 1960 transaxle in a 1956 chassis is what is causing the engine to sit too high. Finding and installing a 1959 or earlier transaxle is the solution, you can’t simply swap an earlier nosecone onto the 1960 transaxle as the shift rails and associated parts inside are different to match the 1960 nosecone.
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splitjunkie
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

b-man wrote:
gzaharatos67 wrote:
Does this look like the nose cone I have on currently?

https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211301297

No, read the description again. Beetles up through 1952, buses up through 1959, my 1956 bus uses that round donut rubber mount.

It looks like you have a one year only 1960 split case transaxle. That was the year they moved the shift rod higher in order to tip the entire drivetrain upward in the rear by 2 degrees.’the reason for this change was to change the rear camber angle, this lowered the differential in relation to the chassis. At the same time they reshaped the frame horns as well, making the 1960 chassis a one year only unit as well.

Using that 1960 transaxle in a 1956 chassis is what is causing the engine to sit too high. Finding and installing a 1959 or earlier transaxle is the solution, you can’t simply swap an earlier nosecone onto the 1960 transaxle as the shift rails and associated parts inside are different to match the 1960 nosecone.


Doh. I don't know why I didn't think of that. I have one burried somewhere. There are probably pictures in the gallery.



If it is a '60 transmission, the nose cone, hockey stick and the three shift rods are '60 only and would have to be replaced with '59 and earlier parts to convert it to use the earlier nose cone. '60 transmissions are much harder to find so you would have no problem selling it at a premium and getting a correct trans.
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splitjunkie
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

I looked around and found some pictures of a '60 nose cone and found one for sale with very good pictures so it appears that yours is definitely a '60 transmission, or at least has a '60 nose cone on it. As I stated earlier, to convert back to a '59 and earlier configuration you would have to replace the nose cone, the hockey stick and the three shift rods inside the transmission. This would involve splitting the case, replacing the shift rods and readjusting the shift forks.

Either sell it complete and buy a '59 and earlier transmission or get a transmission shop like Rancho to swap those parts out with '59 and earlier parts which are much easier to find. Then sell those '60 only parts together to someone with a '59 and earlier transmission who it trying to fit it into a '60 beetle.

The '60 nosecone has the part number 113 301 211 A.

'59 and earlier is the 113 301 211.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2487424

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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tehillah1
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

A 61-68 swing axle with an early bus nose cone and hockey stick should work as well if you are not stuck on being absolutely period correct and will broaden the selection if you are looking for a replacement option. 67-68 (maybe some 66?) units have longer axles/tubes than would match your stock width so those are considerations...I went through this with my 55 adapting a 68 swing axle to fit. Put 65 axles/tubes on it with an early bus nose cone and hockey stick and everything lines up correctly.
There are a couple of swing axle trannies for reasonable price on the Denver craigslist right now, they're over on the western slope:
I think this one is listed out of a 64, would need a nose cone/hockey stick.
https://westslope.craigslist.org/pts/7571991811.html
Don't know the year on this one but numbers are listed in the pics
https://westslope.craigslist.org/pts/7571991608.html
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esde
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

If you had someone local to swap the shift rails, I have all the parts you need. I just tore down a half dozen split case transmissions trying to find the parts to make one good unit, so I definitely have the shift rails, nose cone, and hockey stick.

Interesting about the 60 transmission. I knew the mount was one year only, and the rear forks, but didn't know about the 60 only nose cone and shift rails.
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Wow wow this is invaluable information.

I will start the search for the proper transmission. Thank you so so much.
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

I had this transmission rebuilt at a local shop. What are the chances that the guy didn't realize these were one year only parts? Seems like if he knew what he was doing he would have opened it up realized that it was for 1960 only and given me a call right? Or did he simply replace it with pre-59 guts? I'm going to get in touch with him tomorrow and try to figure it all out.

**Now that I think about it ... The nose cone may not be original to this transmission. I recall buying the trans and being told the nose cone on it wasn't correct ... Or maybe it was the hockey stick ... And they gave me this nose cone thi king it was the correct one.

How can I tell if the transmission itself is pre-59 or if it is the one year only 60?

I already pulled it. Here are the numbers.


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Last edited by gzaharatos67 on Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

tehillah1 wrote:
A 61-68 swing axle with an early bus nose cone and hockey stick should work as well if you are not stuck on being absolutely period correct and will broaden the selection if you are looking for a replacement option. 67-68 (maybe some 66?) units have longer axles/tubes than would match your stock width so those are considerations...I went through this with my 55 adapting a 68 swing axle to fit. Put 65 axles/tubes on it with an early bus nose cone and hockey stick and everything lines up correctly.
There are a couple of swing axle trannies for reasonable price on the Denver craigslist right now, they're over on the western slope:
I think this one is listed out of a 64, would need a nose cone/hockey stick.
https://westslope.craigslist.org/pts/7571991811.html
Don't know the year on this one but numbers are listed in the pics
https://westslope.craigslist.org/pts/7571991608.html


Tha ks for the reply. I'm gonna do my best to keep it period correct though.
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Based on that A264 # it's out of a 54 beetle.

That would mean that with the proper nose cone I would be in business, correct?

I'm also worried that it doesn't shift properly. With vice grips on it I seem to be able to find two gears only. Anyone have video of finding gears with transmission out of car?

Of course with the ring nose cone and likely even hockey stick, it wouldn't shift properly anyway ...
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esde
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

54 was a 6 digit number
a 7 digit number starting with A264 is September of 59, so a probably a 60 model.
the inner parts (gears/ shafts/ bearings are the same as the earlier split case trans. I just did some digging and the only differences are what splitjunkie stated, shift rails, hockey stick and nose cone.
Difficulty shifting is could be a few different things. If you are going to have the trans swapped or opened back up I wouldn't sweat that right now.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

This has been solved before with a very similar named thread. There are a ton of 1960 transmissions that have been shoved in early cars. This is the third one that has come up over the last year. Searching and reading would be of value in the future.

The thing that amazes me is that everyone goes for the hardest most difficult fix… and usually related to body mounts. Read the thread I started and you will see what I mean.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=766169&highlight=

To save you some time, replace the nose cone and shift rails to solve the problem. See this thread for fix;

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9852206&highlight=#9852206
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Always a guy that pops in and assumes I didn't just spend hours and hours of the past several days searching. Sometimes it's difficult to find stuff bruv.

Thanks for the info though ✌️
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Just wanted to throw this out there as a possible solution.

Chances are I have tracked down a proper pre-59 transmission that I will use but here it is anyway ...

Trans and engine back in, rear carrier that holds rear mounts out, engine supported by floor jack. Lower engine to proper height, place carrier in position and mark where new, higher holes would need to be drilled. Grind off some metal, drill new holes for the 21mm bolts to go through and weld a washer (likely modified, top shaved off to fit) onto the carrier.

Would also need to find first gear and drill a dimple either or both the hockey stick and shift rod once aligned properly.

If absolutely needed, would this be a potential fix?
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esde
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

you run out of room between the bolt head and top flange of the carrier pretty quickly. You would also lower the axle tube and the likely hood that the boot would get pinched between the frame horn and tube.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

esde wrote:
you run out of room between the bolt head and top flange of the carrier pretty quickly. You would also lower the axle tube and the likely hood that the boot would get pinched between the frame horn and tube.


Yes, that is what happens. You do not need to try it. Someone already did and has told us all about it 40 years ago!
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Yeah good call. I will get the proper transmission and look to sell this one to someone with a 60 beetle.

Thanks everyone!
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gzaharatos67
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

Just an update ...

Got a proper split case transmission rebuilt from Mr. Gas and mounted it yesterday.

New problem ... Gears just aren't right. I can get reverse no problem. Feels like I can get 1 maybe 2 other gears ... But the thing it, no matter what I have it in ... One of the gears or neutral... The output shaft never spins. It's completely stuck.

Hoping to talk to him tmrw and keeping fingers crossed that driving 3 hrs one way down there again isn't the answer.

I'm so mad at myself for not having him run it through the gears when I picked it up ...

Any input is welcome.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Engine angled a touch too high ... Reply with quote

You mean the 'input' shaft in the bellhousing? Can you spin it by hand, it should not be stuck.
Due to the design of the differential turning one axle doesn't do much, if that's the test you're trying to do. If so have one person on each axle and spin the axles forward, the shaft will spin.
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