412 Tan Wagon Project 2023

[CAVEHEAD]

Starting the new year on the right foot, I want to start by saying that those of us who spend our free time under a 70’s Volkswagen are a rare breed of people in my mind. Some would say these cars are easy to restore and keep running, but as time passes and after 20 years of working on them it’s getting harder. Ok, maybe now that I’m 64 years old these bones can’t lay down on the floor then get back up 50 times during an engine pull without feeling it.
I’ve talked with lots of local fellow enthusiasts over the last few months getting ready for this effort at hand (412 Wagon) and many of them are dumping their whole collect of parts and cars. This maybe my last VW project, but I hope not 😊. With that said, this engine pull seems to have been the hardest one ever with all the connections, billows, pipes and well you guys know…

I’m going to try and use this form to document the bigger steps of the effort as we go. Thanks to Ray Greenwood, Ubercrap, Pepperbilly and others for the help in advance.

The project car Tan Wagon (pics) is in fair condition although the engine does run yet, overall there seems to be a lot more good than bad. The clue to the not running was when the fuel line was disconnected between tank and the filter the gas looked like maple syrup and on the engine side like apple juice.

[Pepperbilly]

Happy New Year!

Nice to see another Type 4 being saved. That wagon looks very nice and seems to have had some care.
I would really recommend getting a small type car lift. I got one years ago and use it on all our cars. With my 412 I constantly have the car in the air to make life liveable. There is no way I will crawl around on the ground anymore. I can see what looks like original paint was maya gold metallic like mine.

Have fun and we will be watching,
Bill

[KTPhil]

My solution to the aging back problem was a combination of helpers:
1) QuickJack 5000 to lift the car
2) ATV jack with custom wood adapter plate to raise and lower engine.
Well worth it for safety and control, and cheaper than five years of chiropractic care!

Or you might have a hefty friend?
https://www.facebook.com/reel/680359037091334/?app=fbl

[heimlich]

That looks like a nice car.
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[Chris Walden]

Nice car Cave...Hey, I think I see why it’s not running...the engine seems to fallen out onto the floor!! I’d have a mechanic look into that.
Chris.

[Lars S]

Wonderful car!!!
We will for sure be following your project!

/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold

[CAVEHEAD]

Thanks Guys , I'll be doing an automatic to manual swap on it and hopefully an upgrade to 914 2.0 liter engine , if the donor engine runs up in good condition.

PS. Thanks for the manual trans parts Chris W.

"Thumbs Up"
Cave

[KTPhil]

[CAVEHEAD]

Hi Guys,

The deeper into this 412 wagon it goes, one thought keeps haunting me. There are new parts all over the place, paint, carpet, brakes, etc , it had to be mechanic, owned by someone in the forum (411/412)!

Does anyone know the previous owner(s), The individual that it was purchased from didn't seem like the mechanic type (no offence to them). I was informed that the fuel injection was removed because it was troublesome and twin EMPI carbs installed., but it hasn't run since then so I understand. Not that it maters who did the primary restoration on it just a nice to know.

Regards to all,
Cave

[CAVEHEAD]

Good days work, got the engine on the stand and put her to sleep. Lots of pedals to select from for the conversion to manual ...

Sleeping Beauty in her long winters nap

[Pepperbilly]

Nice looking work space. I like the flag and you have the same Porsche parking sign that I have. Ok, where ARE you hiding the Porsche?

Bill

[CAVEHEAD]

Hey Guys,

been looking today at Master cylinders (brake & slave) and stumbled on these two which look promising. The single output clutch slave would require a mount change to the peddle stand . but nothing some ninor fabrication can't handle. The brake master looks like the dimensions are a very close to OEM after some measurements of the original.

Cave

[raygreenwood]

I am glad you are looking at the wide range of alternatives like I have been over the decades and are not hesitant about buying and trying!

Let me caution you to slow down just a little bit.


First....as far as brake master cylinders go....I have about an 80 page illustrated document I have been working on and collecting information, measurements and part numbers and testing ...for well over a decade that is finally about to be uploaded.
It is all about exactly what is inside type 4 and type 3 master brake cylinders and what cross matches and starts out with the full rebuild pictorial of Pepperbillys master cylinder.

It also has an alternative section about installing totally different geometry brake master cylinders including the pictorial of my pedal cluster that had an L-bracket welded on back around 2001 to use a type 3 brake master cylinder right out of the box (with some tuning). I drove on it for several years daily.

So....the clutch master and slave cylinder....are VERY different than the brake master and slave cylinder in the respect that they are NOT dead end cylinders with "stops" for what they are driving.

Example....in reality you can throw a wide range of master cylinders into the brake system of a type 4 car. While having one of different volume or stroke length WILL cause some tuning issues....it will NOT cause damage. It will work. You can drive the car.

However....the clutch slave has no stop. The clutch master cylinder MUST have the exact same volume if you are going to use the same slave or it will OVER DRIVE it and damage the clutch and clutch fork.

An example:

The early 411 and late 411/412 cars all used the same clutch master cylinder. Same bore diameter, stroke and output.

The early 411 slave cylinder was exactly HALF the diameter (22.25mm) of the late 411/42 slave cylinder (44.5mm).

The operative question is ...does the same volume of master cylinder NOT drive the 22.25mm slave piston....twice as far?......YES....yes it does.

How does that work?

It works because the linkage geometry of where the slave push rod contacts the clutch fork, where the pivot point on the clutch fork is and what the clutch fork length is.....are very different on the early versus late.

here is a crude sketch of that geometry difference:

I agree that the 25mm Vanagon cylinder is a great choice because its close enough (with some tweaks) in form factor to use....and best of all...now days its dirt cheap and readily available. I can buy a top brand one for $22 and get rebuild kits for about $8.

BUT....with the stock master cylinder ....the piston stroke of the 25mm Vanagon slave cylinder is 56% LONGER than the stroke of the 44.5mm cutch slave.....and.....the clutch fork geometry and pivot point are set up for the 44.5mm cylinder and will not be readily changed.

Fear not.

I have a 15 page thread just about the clutch slave and master I have been working on with all of the volumes, stroke lengths of all of these cylinders we are speaking of....including exact volumes with spring volume subtracted etc.

I can show you how to change the volume output of the stock master cylinder...for less than about $1...to make it tunable. It is a little tedious to set up but it allows keeping the stock cylinder and making the Vanagon cylinder work perfectly.

the only real fabrication is that once you have it bolted to the adapter plate you will need to fabricate a pushrod of the correct length because neither the Vanagon pushrod or original 412 pushrod will be the right length.

I should have the document uploaded to start the conversation by Friday night. I am in a factory in the morning so its a busy week.

I say start the conversation...because though I can give you some solutions....I think there are many possible solutrions if you are willing to fabricate and make adjustments.

I am also having a thick wall "sleeve" made to be able to simply drop the vanagon piston into the original 44.5mm slave body so it will look just like stock. In other words I can sleeve the 44.5mm slave down to 25mm and then make a new pushrod and then install the limiter inside the master cylinder. Even the vanagon boot will fit this part.

Ray

[CAVEHEAD]

Thank you very much Ray for the time you commit and your support to the 41X community. This article is very informative and hopeful that soon we'll have a long term solution to the dwindling OEM hydraulic parts availability. Can't wait to see your final report and recommendation

[Pepperbilly]

“It is all about exactly what is inside type 4 and type 3 master brake cylinders and what cross matches and starts out with the full rebuild pictorial of Pepperbillys master cylinder.” Per Ray



Glad my cylinder is the star of show and tell here. It ought to be… it works so well! I think of Ray everytime I step on the brakes !

Bill

[CAVEHEAD]

Chomping at the bit to see this solution

[Chris Walden]

Wish I..or someone..could shed some light on the provenance of your car. Does it look to have been restored at some time, or just thoughtfully well maintained?
Chris

[Pepperbilly]

To me it looks like from that engine compartment shot that the original color was maya gold metallic.

Bill

[CAVEHEAD]

True that was the original color , the re-spray was a complete (95%) coverage of that tan color. The interior was completely painted tan, the entire inside floors, inner side panels, but not the pillars, roof and engine bay. Someone put a lot of work and cash into this one. I would be surprised it wasn't owned by a forum 41X member at one point, VW dealership mechanic from the past (time traveler) or both. It's not that important to me now, just glad it's in this good a condition and can say it will be even better when I'm done.

[CAVEHEAD]

As long as I've worked on 70's era VW's (20 years) the same old problem still aggravates me. You try penetrating oils, Vise grips, hammer drills, whatever and still you can't get them out. Anyone got the magic tool or process.