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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:54 pm Post subject: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Warning - long post.
So, i made a great new friend...
Jeff has a Squareback and found me after hearing my podcast on Let's Talk Dubs.
Turns out, he's new to the hobby, but jumping in with both feet.
Fun to work with a newbie when he's got heart.
He ended up getting a '66 splitty camper bus.
I think it's an EZ camper?
Anyways, cool bus, but a total basket case under the decklid.
I agreed to help him learn/build motor, long as he didn't cheap out or cut corners,
And did the grunt work…
Heads were junk, crank was junk, etc.
Case and rods could be saved.
Because the deck needed cut, it got opened up for 90.5s.
Luckily, we still have a master VW machinist here in Santa Cruz.
Anyways.. BLa bla bla again.
Giving context for our build here.
Jeff is new. A smart guy, but not a lot of tools or experience.
He wants to use his bus a LOT. Drive it long distances and camp.
He's keeping the reduction boxes.
It will definitely go off-road.
For this reason we decided no deep sump.
Also going to run a stock 34 PICT and stock exhaust.
Big restriction, stock exhaust..
He might get a header and some dual carbs one day but not soon.
We are going to build a nice motor but limit performance mods.
Crawling gracefully along in traffic or on a fire road is a top priority.
He would also like to run in modern highway traffic within reason.
Here's what we got so far:
AA counterweighted 69 crank.
Stock German flywheel, Sachs PP, sprung disk, all spin-balanced.
W90 Engle cam/lifters.
(Bought when Web was still down).
AA stock-valve heads.
German rebuilt SVDA.
Found a German carb.
So, a stock build but 90.5s and W90.
*yawn*.
Still, we have been doing a bunch of detail work. Tons.
The idea is that we're building the best motor we can.
Hence the counterweighted crank with a balance job.
Once Jeff gets some pics up we can show profiled rods, case porting, head porting, full flow, Hoover HVX, etc.
Here we relieved/blended the bottom of the cylinder spigots a la David Vizard.
At the end of this vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qqoXy_kyZc
Eliminating the sharp edge along the bottom of the cylinder spigot cut into the case should allow air to flow more freely.
A nice motor. "Balanced and blueprinted" even if nearly stock.
So the questions now are:
What CR?
-and-
What other little mods are worth it?
Anybody have details on removing the snout from the stock oil bath cleaner?
CB center section?
Maybe some cleanup of end castings?
We're trying to build the best motor we can.
Appreciate any input.
I haven't done a stock motor in a Loooong time.
I'm thinking that a bunch of little details can add up. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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A hair dryer - sized to reach cross over at about 1800 rpm - limited to 6 - 8 psi. Possibly one off a TDI would fit the bill, common as heck. Yup, put one of those on and Buddy Jeff will have a poop eating grin a mile wide and be driving that splitty every chance he gets!
No internal engine mods needed and the best performance per dollar he will ever spend! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3228 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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I would do 8.3-8.5cr. Are they the aa500 style heads? If you get the heads cleaned up correctly, they oughta flow about 130-135cfm @ .500".
That cam needs more lift to get the heads working good, so I would use some 1.25 rockers and decent springs. Clean up the end castings as well.
Nice tight deck will help with the extra compression. Do very little valve un-shrouding if they are the 500 heads.
A regular header and single muffler with the heat riser down to the collector mod would be really nice.
Grant cast rings and proper cylinder wall prep.
Other than that....That's about all you can do.
Brian _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9603 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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I realize you think very highly of your VW engine machinist, but don't the cylinder openings have a REALLY rough finish?
I've had about 15 cases machined for larger cylinders by various shops such as the original RImco, Berg's, and a local shop in PA over the past 3 decades- and the ground surfaces are usually as shiny/smooth as seen in your first photo of the fresh line bore. |
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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I’d buy a set of 5.4 CB Unitech rods vs rebuilding stock.
Would also look at Tim’s super stock heads if he plans to go with dual carbs in the future |
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rosevillain Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2005 Posts: 1286 Location: roseville, ca
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Pretty excited about Clatter building another engine. However, still waiting for the burnout button to function. |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9665 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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A 1776 will push a splitty very well. Especially when running RBG's.
I had a coworker back in the early 80's that had a splitty with a 1776, dual kaddies and RBG's.
That thing would rip up hunks of asphalt when Dan stepped on the fun pedal.
As it was, Dan didn't do anything real special to it. Just the carbs and a decent header with a single muff.
Meaning, a set of stock rebuilt rods will serve Jeff's engine well, for what he plans on doing with it.
Keep the build simple and let Jeff get his feet wet on ACVW engine building.
The single carb will help him early. He can always change things up later when he wants more out of the build.
Really? Add a Turbo for a first time ACVW builder? Sheesh!!! _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Seasurfnbird Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: Pescadero, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:58 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Well how lucky am I to live near Clatter and to have a 67 Type III like him albeit a ratty patina stock daily Squareback vs his unbelievable black Fastback. I’ve been very fortunate to have befriended you and your family especially because you are extremely knowledgeable, experimental and a perfectionist but not in the annoying way in any sense. With the VW community it’s a bit like learning to read braille but still being able to see. Most are happy to share up to a point but expect you to already know all the basics which I certainly do not. Lol
I was perfectly happy with my 67 Squareback, but I dangerously subscribed to the splitty samba classified ads mostly to satisfy my curiosity, but generally freaked out by the prices haha
Then a Brit who owned the 66 EZ camper in the Oakland hills for 14 years was returning back to London and I was just the lucky stiff to first respond to the add and show up and get the engine going by cleaning the points after it sat for two years.
After another side adventure with another Porsche Master Mechanic to learn about upgrading to a dual master cylinder and new break lines, new tires, new stock oil bath air filter and fixing the smoking fuse box, taking my cash, etc, etc I was able to get the 66 back home and focus on the numerous issues including the drippy engine with the missing cooling tins and thermostat with a loud muffler.
Clatter was really generous to help me look at my engine as long as I didn’t do anything half ass and kept it as clean as possible. Not a problem when you’re in the presence of an articulate and passionate VW guy. The guy straight up is as giddy as a teenager learning how to surf when it comes to working on Aircooled VW engines, but believe me his knowledge is far and wide when it comes to all things with an engine.
Now I had no idea how deep we would dive but it has really been one of the best learning experiences I could ever ask for. I NEVER thought I would split an engine case let alone port heads and the case, balance rods, and do all the cutting edge mods for a 1776cc while keeping the heater boxes, installing a stock muffler, single stock carb and OG oil bath air filter. Baby steps right?
Here are a few photos.
Certainly open to anyone’s advice…
_________________ 67' Squareback
66’ EZ Camper
Jeff’s Bus Stocker Plus |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:09 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Nice project, glad you are enjoying it! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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definitely glad your enjoying it! It is fun to build an engine.
Regarding the rods…definitely nothing wrong with stock rods for your build. Just a preference of mine.
CB’s Unitech rods are forged-Chromoly and balanced for $90…just hard to beat |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Rome wrote: |
I realize you think very highly of your VW engine machinist, but don't the cylinder openings have a REALLY rough finish?
I've had about 15 cases machined for larger cylinders by various shops such as the original RImco, Berg's, and a local shop in PA over the past 3 decades- and the ground surfaces are usually as shiny/smooth as seen in your first photo of the fresh line bore. |
Heh! Someone noticed this..
Take a bit closer look at what’s going on here.
Cylinder ‘open up’ cut was done well and the finish is clean.
The ‘mouth’ of this cut has had a radius added.
Said another way, there had been a bell-mouth put on the bottom edge of the cylinder spigot.
Kind of like a velocity stack on a carb…
Pics were taken just roughed in with a burr.
We were going to polish it with a flap wheel,
But current thought with intake ports is that a rough finish flows better.
Didja watch that video i linked?
Vizard is a well-regarded builder.
Not a huge gain here I’m sure,
But these small mods do add up.
More power, better mileage, smoother running, and free!
What’s not to love?
Anyone else digging this?
It’s a new one on me! _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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rosevillain wrote: |
Pretty excited about Clatter building another engine. However, still waiting for the burnout button to function. |
Heh!
Thanks my man.
You’re the only one who noticed that i never posted the obligatory burnout vid at the end of that build..!
We’ll get that now that i got called out.. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Hmmm... I will think about it...
Meanwhile I have a set of tire chains to put on the snow blower. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)
Last edited by oprn on Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7183 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Seasurfnbird wrote: |
Now I had no idea how deep we would dive but it has really been one of the best learning experiences I could ever ask for. I NEVER thought I would split an engine case let alone port heads and the case, balance rods, and do all the cutting edge mods for a 1776cc while keeping the heater boxes, installing a stock muffler, single stock carb and OG oil bath air filter. Baby steps right?
Here are a few photos.
Certainly open to anyone’s advice…
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And that where you will kill your fine investment in no time flat. but its your engine and your money. Just sayin´ _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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txoval wrote: |
definitely glad your enjoying it! It is fun to build an engine.
Regarding the rods…definitely nothing wrong with stock rods for your build. Just a preference of mine.
CB’s Unitech rods are forged-Chromoly and balanced for $90…just hard to beat |
I do get where you’re coming from.
There is a new set of those Unitechs right here in their box that i got for free and might never use.
Would have happily given them to Jeff for his build here and saved us a bunch of balance work.
Jeff’s motor has obviously seen an ‘engine house’ rebuild by a volume shop at some point.
Things like rods and pushrods are from different motors.
You can see subtle differences in color or casting marks, but especially in balance.
These weren’t all made at the same time and came from the same core motor.
So, even though they were balanced within a gram or two overall,
When we did the end-to-end balancing on my jig here we found more imbalance.
It did take a bit if fussing to get them nutted, especially with my hoakey balance rig.
Still,
In the end,
I’m going to offer that a set of properly-done 311b rods are better in one way:
Overall dimensional accuracy.
My man Jim has a couple of nice old Sunnen rod hones and has used them consistently for decades.
He knew we would be looking carefully and care deeply about the quality of his work.
Things we can check like pin fit are exacting like you can only get from a craftsman.
While the Unitechs are really nice and might be perfect as well.
If they weren’t, we wouldn’t know until it’s too late.
This way we have the man himself checking everything on a precision instrument.
I trust Jim’s work more than people in China on an assembly line cranking out rods for low wages. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Alstrup wrote: |
Seasurfnbird wrote: |
Now I had no idea how deep we would dive but it has really been one of the best learning experiences I could ever ask for. I NEVER thought I would split an engine case let alone port heads and the case, balance rods, and do all the cutting edge mods for a 1776cc while keeping the heater boxes, installing a stock muffler, single stock carb and OG oil bath air filter. Baby steps right?
Here are a few photos.
Certainly open to anyone’s advice…
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And that where you will kill your fine investment in no time flat. but its your engine and your money. Just sayin´ |
Huh?
Please elaborate. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7183 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Stock air cleaner will mess up the fuel mix/jetting due to full timer vacum once over approx 2500 rpm.
The stock bus muffler is too restrictive for a stock 1600 engine. How do you think your head temps (and oil for that matter) will behave when going 1776 ? _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Alstrup wrote: |
Stock air cleaner will mess up the fuel mix/jetting due to full timer vacum once over approx 2500 rpm.
The stock bus muffler is too restrictive for a stock 1600 engine. How do you think your head temps (and oil for that matter) will behave when going 1776 ? |
Big thanks for your input.
Like i said before, I'm out of my element with anything stock.
Have seen several mini stroker builds here with a 34 PICT.
There's a 37 PICT out there, too right?
Maybe that's our call?
Heard you can 'cut the snout' and/or install a dry-element air filter to allow flow enough for a bigger motor using a stock filter housing?
We have a couple 1 3/8 extractor exhausts around here to use,
So that's no problem at all.
Because Jeff lives in a cold damp antique lighthouse(!) right on the ocean,
And has to get right up to highway speed ASAP,
I'm most interested in good intake manifold heat.
You would vote for a set of dual carbs?
I can help him babysit a pair of these but would prefer not to.
Thanks again. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3413 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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I did this to a stock oli bath bus air cleaner and installed a K&N filter. Works super good. It attaches to a factory bracket to the coil moint holes. Only requires some grinding on the flange on the end.
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Brian_e wrote: |
I would do 8.3-8.5cr. Are they the aa500 style heads? If you get the heads cleaned up correctly, they oughta flow about 130-135cfm @ .500".
That cam needs more lift to get the heads working good, so I would use some 1.25 rockers and decent springs. Clean up the end castings as well.
Nice tight deck will help with the extra compression. Do very little valve un-shrouding if they are the 500 heads.
A regular header and single muffler with the heat riser down to the collector mod would be really nice.
Grant cast rings and proper cylinder wall prep.
Other than that....That's about all you can do.
Brian |
Glad you saw this, brother.
The heads we got are indeed the 500s.
https://aapistons.com/collections/stock-performanc...ad-35-5x32
Was on the fence about getting the upgraded valves like these.
https://aapistons.com/collections/stock-performanc...ad-35-5x32
I somehow pictured the 'stock' valves being more robust so i went that way.
We don't need a ton of flow here and longevity is key.
Any idea if i guessed right?
Heads are at the machinist for open up and a good valve job.
In the meantime we popped them apart and gave a looksee.
First off was a shelf at the edge of the seat plunge cut.
A big step that we smoothed out into the chamber, and that's about it.
Hope we didn't un-shroud too much like you warn not to.
Another thing was this ridge at the bottom of the bowl.
Much more so on the intake.
Feeling in there, it's even bigger than it looks.
Also check out the short side turn on the exhaust..
Pulling the guides and doing a proper port job wasn't in the cards.
Yet i have this small burr that we were able to knock most of that ridge down at the bottom of the bowl.
Ports are almost too big for the valves it seems,
Other than taking off the flaws where a ridge sticks in there,
We didn't open things up at all.
The exhaust ports seemed too big as well.
But there was a very sharp ridge at the edge of the bowl plunge cut,
And it was especially obvious at the inside of the short turn under the seat.
They didn't finish the cut enough to reach the port, so flash was sticking out right at the sharp turn.
We smoothed it out but kept the radius small.
Wish i had some 'after' pics.
We'll get those in a few days when the heads come back from open-up.
We stayed away from the chambers mostly save for getting rid of that shelf.
The chamber was already too big for the stock 85.5 bore,
And some of the sealing area would have been gone.
You almost have to use these heads with bigger cylinders if you want the full head/cylinder seating surface.
The chambers are already too big. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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