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dunk Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2006 Posts: 158
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Interesting case...
That's one that's had the case half mating surfaces skimmed, and a line bore on the mains and cam tunnel by VW themselves.... |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7183 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Those cases which have been skimmed and line honed by the factory typically have a 0,25 mm variation in deck height side to side. - Do not assume. CHECK. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Interesting. I've never seen a case in person that was "hungered" or whatever they call it. I know VW did it for a short while.
I wonder with the cost of cases going up, and decent used cores becoming scarcer, if any shop will start doing this again.
Unfortunately I kinda doubt it. Small machine work is getting hard to find. When I was a teen in the Ohio Valley, there was a machine shop in every town. But even then they were starting to close down. Sad. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Alstrup wrote: |
Those cases which have been skimmed and line honed by the factory typically have a 0,25 mm variation in deck height side to side. - Do not assume. CHECK. |
Damn, you’re good..!
We ordered a set of .020 shims for one side and .010 for the other.
With .25mm being .0098” I’m thinking close enough. _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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VW also supplied a remachined brass distributor drive gear with the case. It was cut deeper to accommodate the change in case center line. I hope you still have it as the distributor drive will bind on a stock uncut brass gear. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Ooo! Hot tip. Thanks.
I could see that being a lot of fun to discover the hard way..
Jim also said that they would take pressure relief plungers/bores oversize.
All stuff that the last rebuilder, or rebuilder before him, might have missed! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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dunk Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2006 Posts: 158
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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I have built engines with vw machined cases like this... never used anything but a "decent" used dissy drive gear... one with no dents, chips, nicks, or weird wear patterns.. test fitted with crank/gears/cam etc to make absolutely sure ... ive experienced no problems...
Also...
If there was an "O" stamped on the crankcase that indicated larger front pulley bore... theres a "C" i or indeed partial "O" on the top of the case... might be worth a quick measure...
If the pulley bore isnt oversize.. I wonder what that "C" means?! |
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jimmyhoffa Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014 Posts: 1047 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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I have blued and spun the distributor drive gear set on every engine I have built. You can also just color the brass gear with a permanent marker, and stick a wood dowel into the steel distributor gear to load it, and it will print the contact pattern on the brass gear as you spin it over. I usually try a few combos before I get the minimal play and good contact patch I like. Easy, since the brass dizzy drive gear is the easiest one to get off, vs. the steel cam drive gear. Heat gun or propane torch for just a brief time and off she comes. _________________ 1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8498 Location: PNW
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7183 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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AlteWagen wrote: |
What is everyone doing about the crap aftermarket brass gears these days? After I saw two fail I refused to use them and stick with good used parts. |
Check that the tooth taper is correct. If yes, then cryo treat them. Then tey work just fine _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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Albertoprop17 Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2016 Posts: 196 Location: Valencia (Spain)
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Clatter wrote: |
Spent some time looking at cases..
Using drill bits as gauge pins to check oil gallery sizes,
There are indeed differences between single and dual relief.
The actual bearing feed holes are the same size,
However,
There are differences in the main feed galleries,
Just like Torben says.
These bits all fit into a late case, but not early:
Here a later case has a similar size small feed hole for the cooler,
But unlike an earlier case, the outlet is larger:
Dag,
It's not a huge difference.
The oil pickup tube is going to stay small.
The bearing feed passages are the same size.
If you look closely at the long main passage where the full-flow returns to the case,
The dual-relief case seems to have the casting thicker around that gallery.
Still,
The factory didn't usually just change things for the fun of it.
Their changes to things like this were typically an improvement.
Not a big deal to go get some bits and take these over,
but,
Man!
The risk of ruining the case looms large!
And,
Are we _sure_ there's real gains for a mild 1776?
Hard for me to pull the trigger on this one, gentlemen.
Maybe if it was my case.. |
I've done the case drilling mods (as Torben advised me) on a single relief type 3 case for my mild 1835cc last week.
For me the riskier task was the hoover mod, and maybe the one that goes vertical from the main gallery to the oil cooler. I used a long screwdriver as a guide to see how deep should I go.
The key is to measure a dozen times before drilling, and when you think you are sure to drill, measure again (specially on the hoover mod). I've done the drilling this way and worked perfectly. _________________ '54 vintage speed beetle slow project
Visit my workshop site and leave a like:
https://www.facebook.com/talleresalacreu/ |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Got another good day in on this.
First off was detailing out the W100 so generously donated.
Jeff broke lobe edges and polished thrust faces.
We drug out the case and started setting up cam thrust and crank end-play.
Getting everything to turn took some doing.
Back-and-forth with sanding cam thrust took a half dozen trips.
Odd, because Mahle double-thrust bearings only ever took a couple swipes for me before.
Heard about some cam bearings not seating flat against the thrust in the case,
But didn't seem to be the case here.
AA cam gear was WAY too big!
It would pick the whole cam all the way up out of the bearings,
Not just a little lump-up.
Luckily i had one in my stash that fit nicely.
The temptation to lap it in a la Gene Berg was there for sure,
But we just did what was easy.
Damon came by to help.
He's a good hand from way back.
Since Jeff wants to learn and also get practice,
I just sat and drank beer and heckled.
What could possibly go wrong?
In the end, it came down to lifter heads hitting the bosses in the case.
Surprising, as it's such a small cam.
Engle is still doing large base circles?
It's really close, as some will clear.
Have a set of Scats here that would drop right in,
But would rather use the Engle lifters that are supplied by the cam grinder and warrantied.
Most any other time i used a case that was already machined, or thin-head lifters (or both).
Rather than deal with getting the case clearanced on a mill,
I'm betting we can do it by hand since it's just a bit.
Anybody remember what lifter head clearance to shoot for over the nose?
It's .030, right? _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7183 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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I can send you the Berg cutting/clearancing tool if needed |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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txoval wrote: |
I can send you the Berg cutting/clearancing tool if needed |
No way!
Really?
That’s the right way to do it. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Just know it cuts fast…doesn’t take much |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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That would be very easy to build! A piece of bar stock trimmed up with a cutter brazed on. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Or an old lifter ground down with a cutter left protruding and a bolt welded to it ,for a drill to spin |
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Berg tool is worth the money…precision made, hard anodized, cutter is removable so you can replace it |
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