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NAES Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2003 Posts: 2109 Location: AREA-52 Southern Killafornia
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:20 am Post subject: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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I picked up this fairly OG '61 a few months back and think it would make a great fire road/very mild off road rig. Think San Onofre surf roads or Big Bear trails.
I have the body off the pan so now is the time to do whatever mechanical work is needed. I could either cut and turn the beam or put raised link pin spindles up front. As much as I would like to adjust the rear spring plates to match I'm thinking an IRS conversion is in my future.
I'm thinking 225/75/15 tires with aggressive tread, 40hp motorvation, drum brakes, stock wheels, etc. Nothing fancy at all and minimal custom parts. Maybe some nice Bilstein shocks or similar. I would like the stance to have a nice tire to fender opening gap, not too tall, not too tucked.
I come from the slammed bus world so this stuff is new territory but familiar at the same time. I'm just looking for a tried and true formula to take as much guess work out of the build as I can.
Here's what I'm working with at the moment.
NAES _________________ Barndoor Mafia
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John Ghia Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2004 Posts: 277
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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So did you import the Barndoor for you or a customers? _________________ BUS BOYZ |
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71StandardReduction Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2012 Posts: 707 Location: Louisiana
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NAES Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2003 Posts: 2109 Location: AREA-52 Southern Killafornia
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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John Ghia wrote: |
So did you import the Barndoor for you or a customers? |
The bus is for me. I don't do VW stuff professionally. _________________ Barndoor Mafia
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NAES Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2003 Posts: 2109 Location: AREA-52 Southern Killafornia
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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71StandardReduction wrote: |
https://youtu.be/JKgy32YOKmM
This is ... I think a 64 with small lift.
Fast forward to end on the video and it shows the end result... as could be guessed.
That car is on 215/75r15 tires with swing axle in place, just one outer spline rotation to raise it in the rear.
You mentioned irs swap so I assume you know the swing axle situation.
Will be a fun car I say. |
Funny. I watched that video a day or 2 ago and really like the outcome. Probably a tad too much tire to fender opening clearance for my liking but still I think he did a great job.
The tire tuck under is definitely something I don't want to play around with and since I have a bare pan I can pretty much do whatever is safest.
Keep the ideas coming! NAES _________________ Barndoor Mafia
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joemama Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1635 Location: La Crescenta, California
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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When I was in high school, 1971, a couple of my surfer friends drove a stock '65 bug to the tip of baja, explored dirt roads, sandy washes, offroad terrain, no problem. Stock early bugs were pretty capable.
Having said that, 40 hp wont allow you to turn big tires, specially in the altitude and hills of Big Bear trails . I would probably not go over 205/75/15, General Grabber A/T come in that size, and you could use your stock rims. I would limit you swing axle droop, by welding a small piece of flat stock on top of the probably worn out stock spring plate stop. You could also weld one to a spring plate strap.
This will stop your swing axle from tucking under too far. It will also loose you some down travel, but its way safer. You can add a motor and trans skid plate, add some rub rails to the outer part of the pan, these things will make your bug more offroad capable without the lift (that you cant safely do with a swing axle).
If youre looking to keep an old school theme going, you could convert to early bus reduction gear boxes and trans, and get the lift you want in the rear, stay swing axle, run pretty much any height tire you could fit, and keep your 40 horse motor. Only downside is limited top speed. I have this trans set up sitting in my garage, always wanted to do a bug, or an Empi Sportster this way, though I dont think its going to happen. For the front, there is lots you can do with the link pin beam to get your raise, without lift spindles. You may want to pick up this book, lots of tried and true ideas.
Looking forward to whatever direction you go. Looks like a fun build. |
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petrol punk Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2007 Posts: 971 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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NAES wrote: |
I picked up this fairly OG '61 a few months back and think it would make a great fire road/very mild off road rig. Think San Onofre surf roads or Big Bear trails.
I have the body off the pan so now is the time to do whatever mechanical work is needed. I could either cut and turn the beam or put raised link pin spindles up front. As much as I would like to adjust the rear spring plates to match I'm thinking an IRS conversion is in my future.
I'm thinking 225/75/15 tires with aggressive tread, 40hp motorvation, drum brakes, stock wheels, etc. Nothing fancy at all and minimal custom parts. Maybe some nice Bilstein shocks or similar. I would like the stance to have a nice tire to fender opening gap, not too tall, not too tucked.
I come from the slammed bus world so this stuff is new territory but familiar at the same time. I'm just looking for a tried and true formula to take as much guess work out of the build as I can.
Here's what I'm working with at the moment.
NAES |
Keep in mind a 40hp pushing those tires will probably be pretty slow. You can get 195/80r15 all terrains nowadays, I would probably opt for that. Slightly better gearing, and I've ran 235/75r15's on a cut and turned BJ beam and the turning radius is like a crew cab long bed they rub so bad. _________________ 36hp '56 European DeLuxe oval, '70 bug 1835cc dual 36DRLA, and a '98 4x4 5spd single cab Tacoma |
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earthquake Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008 Posts: 3984 Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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I would do a big bore 40hp with a 2 barrel manifold and Zeinth or a Weber 40mm DCNF but you will probably have to make a adapter for the Weber. You can get 235/75/15's on stock wheels which will give you another 1/2" - 1" under the pan, If I was doing a swing axle I would run a set of bus reductors and gain even more.
eQ _________________ 74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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NAES Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2003 Posts: 2109 Location: AREA-52 Southern Killafornia
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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Well it sounds like the 40 horse is going to be a dog with this setup so I'll build something bigger. I have a 1600 and 1776 in pieces and can put one of those together instead.
I've done enough enough time in buses to know redux boxes aren't for me.
Thanks for the tip on the offroad book. It looks like its worth the read.
I'll keep this thread alive as I get work done. _________________ Barndoor Mafia
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QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1703 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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It looks like a good start to a nice old school class 11
I will be lurking on this build for sure, and that book is a wealth of knowledge for a build like this. |
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NAES Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2003 Posts: 2109 Location: AREA-52 Southern Killafornia
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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Ok I ordered the book! I look forward to diving into it _________________ Barndoor Mafia
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12815 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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You should totally do it! Seeing the faces of the Jeep guys when you stroll past them deep in the trails.
_________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:20 am Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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NAES wrote: |
Ok I ordered the book! I look forward to diving into it |
Some people criticize the book as being out of date. If you want to talk about installing an LS and a sequential gearbox and a-arms, then yeah, it won't help with any of that. But for any VW-based off road car, from daily driver to full race, it's the best thing going. I was the 1st Tech Inspector to check his 1st Baja Bug when he started racing in the 70s, then raced with the author in Baja in 1989. He also worked as an LA City Firefighter on the same crew with one of my close friends. I knew him fairly well. I have a copy of his self-published version of the book from before he made the deal with HP Books. When we were racing together, he revised the book. That version is the one still sold. I was the Proof Reader on it. It's all good info and still quite applicable to VW based offroaders.
I recommend it highly.
BTW...The Baja on the cover is still in pretty much that state of build, although last time I saw it the body was painted white. Still the sale owner too, Bill Kerr, and he's a member of SoCal Bajas that started right here on The Samba. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1364
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:39 am Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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It never ceases to amaze me how many VW owners think they need a full Class 11 or even Class 5 package to go off road. I don't know about you but I'm not about to toss $20k at a car that's a PITA to drive on pubic roads.
That's more like $50k when we do the exchange to California Bucks.
All I did to my old '67 was click it up one outer spline in the rear to fix the droop. And... I removed the Z bar. The links were rusted to hell, anyway.
Your car doesn't have and doesn't need a Z bar.
Everyone seems to think they need 31" tires to go off road. I burned through my entire stash of old 5.60- 15" snow tires, used up my Kleber 175/70-15s. etc.. I have three NOS Mobil 165R15 snow tires if I want to go that way again.
If I had to do it over again I would use 195/65-15" Blizzak hand me downs off our Toyota. Stretch 'em on 6" Aero mini- stock rims.
I've been hoarding Thing parts for my next Bug Thingy.
And... lose that 40 horse. Stick it on a pallet and save it for the guy who wants your car "numbers match" fifty years from now.
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NAES Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2003 Posts: 2109 Location: AREA-52 Southern Killafornia
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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Thanks again guys. I'll read through the book and build something more old school that works.
I have no desire to build a full race style off road rig. This is something just to cruise around in and play in the dirt once in a while.
I'm really looking forward to getting into this build soon _________________ Barndoor Mafia
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joemama Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1635 Location: La Crescenta, California
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:49 am Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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I spent a lot of time building a nice class 11 style bug, did many of the recommended mods. It is a very nice bug, too nice, ended up selling it. If I had to do it again, and I might, I will build a simpler, closer to stock, kick around bug. It would be pre '67. So Im looking forward to following your build. |
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NAES Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2003 Posts: 2109 Location: AREA-52 Southern Killafornia
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: '61 full bodied beetle build. Opinions appreciated |
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I finally had time to pour over the Baja Bugs and Buggies book and really liked the info it contained.
I did seriously consider going Type 2 reduction box on this build and if a transaxle all but falls into my lap I still might go this route.
Realistically though I'm pretty much sold on the IRS transaxle so I'll order the pivot arm mounts and install kit to get them fitted.
My local powdercoater has an oven large enough for the pan so once everything is fitted I'll send it over.
I should have solid progress inside of 2 weeks. _________________ Barndoor Mafia
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