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dustino Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2020 Posts: 11 Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:38 pm Post subject: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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Hello friends. Long time lurker, first time poster.
I've been prepping my EJ to drop in the van (hoping to start a build thread at some point). This is my first time doing a project this intense, though I'm fairly mechanically inclined and have a few years experience maintaining the water boxer so I'm not exactly new.
Well things were going swimmingly until I broke two bolts in the block while trying to pull the coolant manifold.
Today I tried to get them out with a bolt extractor. Not only did it not work, but I cracked the block around the bolt hole.
I consider this the limit of my own skill set and don't quite know how to proceed. I'd like to think it's salvageable given it's local to that one spot for a bolt that doesn't need to be torqued that tight.
I guess my questions are:
1. Is this fixable and
2. Who does one call to fix something like this? |
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vanis13 Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010 Posts: 3083 Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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1 yes
several approaches...
the first one I'd use is to JB weld an stud in there and use a bolt on top.
if that fails, it will not make any of the other solutions harder which my include to remove the loose pieces and weld-fill with a blob and shape/drill/tap it.
2 IDK
it would have to be someone who is into the intrigue of it. anyone who does it just for the money is likely gonna cost you more than you'd like. _________________ 83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9523 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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You need an aluminum welder.
Weld it and re-thread if necessary.
I would not squeeze it together, the welder may want to clean it or ??
Let him decide. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3528 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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Wow that's a Crack. What type of extractor did you use? The concerning issue is the gap. I think it may have more cracks that are not visible.
Try Googling this and see if this common to that engine, and the fix. I have an extra case, but I'm too far away.
What year and size is that motor? |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22573 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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Drill and JB weld in a stud. Don’t forget to throw your bolt extractors into the nearest lake, first. _________________ .ssS! |
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vanis13 Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010 Posts: 3083 Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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Abscate wrote: |
Drill and JB weld in a stud. Don’t forget to throw your bolt extractors into the nearest lake, first. |
why drill?
thread in a stud try to verify installation fit. Fill with regular (slow) JB and thread in the stud. way stronger than having the JB hold onto a smooth drilled wall. as the stud gets threaded in it will squeeze JB into cracks. _________________ 83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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vanis13 Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010 Posts: 3083 Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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dustino Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2020 Posts: 11 Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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tjet wrote: |
Wow that's a Crack. What type of extractor did you use? The concerning issue is the gap. I think it may have more cracks that are not visible.
Try Googling this and see if this common to that engine, and the fix. I have an extra case, but I'm too far away.
What year and size is that motor? |
I used this set from Harbor Freight.
The motor is a 2.5l out of an '04 Outback. |
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dustino Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2020 Posts: 11 Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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Thanks for the help, all. I'm going to try my hand with JB Weld before I pay somebody. The annoying thing is I still need to get the broken end of the bolts out of both of those holes. |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16476 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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dustino wrote: |
Thanks for the help, all. I'm going to try my hand with JB Weld before I pay somebody. The annoying thing is I still need to get the broken end of the bolts out of both of those holes. |
I would use a 1/8" reverse twist carbide bit to try to get the pieces out. If it does not twist them out while drilling then go up to 3/16". I bet you they come out pretty easy though since they have no tension on them. Reverse twist bits are your friend here.
Do not use any kind of extractor since if you break it off in that hole your are screwed since you cannot drill the extractor out.
And are you sure you need to get the pieces out? If you have enough depth there to get the stud JB welded in place you may be OK as is. _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3262 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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I have the luxury of a MIG welder in the garage. Steel bolts and steel studs broken or stuck in aluminum castings are easy to extract with a welder. A stick welder (with a skilled operator) is even better.
You can place a nut over the end of the broken fastener and weld it to the broke stud or bolt and then move quickly to extract it. The reason it works is because the heat applied to the broken stud or bolt breaks the bond formed between the dissimilar metals. Most often, I just weld a nib on the end of the broken fastener and use vise grips to extract. This works on the first try half the time and the other half requires a repeat attempt.
With the portion of the fasteners still stuck in the OP's block, there may be enough steel remaining to use this approach. The wire on the MIG welder approach can be poked down into the existing hole to fill up the drilled out cavity. _________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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valvecovergasket Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018 Posts: 1491 Location: pnw
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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how deep is the "clear" hole as it sits now? are those cracked pieces still fairly firmly attached down below or are they feeling like loose teeth where theyll pop off shortly?
if its got cm or something of depth to it, and the broken bits dont feel like theyre about to fly off, id be tempted to try jb weld and getting a helicoil or something down a little deeper into the hole... especially if this doesnt have to take a ton of torque i bet fresh thread deeper down past the worst of the cracking, and jbweld to fill the cracked bits, it oughta hold _________________ MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com
gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50265
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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What can you get another engine for? Around here Subaru engines are still very cheap, so if you have to pay someone to weld things up for you and otherwise do repair it might be better to go with another engine. |
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vanis13 Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010 Posts: 3083 Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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that set includes left hand drill bits...cool! _________________ 83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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dustino Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2020 Posts: 11 Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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Okay here's the update.
Upon further inspection, with very light pressure the cracked pieces just broke all the way off. I didn't grab a picture but it was two pretty even pieces. This made it pretty easy to retrieve the rest of the broken bolt since the whole was open on one side.
So I decided to first try to JB weld the pieces back on. Once I had them placed, I tried my best to zip tie it all together to hold it in place. I then coated an M6 bolt with shoe wax as a release agent and carefully threaded it back into the hole.
My hope is this will hold and I can just re-use the original threads. If it doesn't hold, I plan to further reinforce with JB Weld then drill the hole and install a helicoil. Last resort will be to just JB weld a stud.
It only needs to hold 4.7ft/lb of torque, so I'm hopeful. Will remove the bolt in a few hours and test it out tomorrow afternoon once it's cured. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50265
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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How about using a stud so that you can utilize every last thread down in the block. Maybe use some JB Weld as well. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9523 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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Wildthings wrote: |
How about using a stud so that you can utilize every last thread down in the block. Maybe use some JB Weld as well. |
Absolutely.
The nut runs on the steel threads.
Probe the hole to measure how deep it is.
Get a 'bottoming tap" (or make one) and cut full threads to the bottom of the hole.
If you have ~6mm of real threads it will definitely hold 4.7 ft-lbs.
If you have 9mm of real threads epoxy won't help, 'cuz it's totally good.
Screw the threaded stud into the remaining threads, perhaps with epoxy. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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vanis13 Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010 Posts: 3083 Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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dustino wrote: |
Last resort will be to just JB weld a stud. |
What has you try those other things before arriving at this last and likely that most permanent solution? What's the draw to see if the others work (and possibly fail?). All that seems like allot of work. _________________ 83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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syncrodoka Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005 Posts: 11998 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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Other than having it welded, I would have jb welded the entire thing and put in a timesert or some other kind of cylindrical thread insert. Using the jb weld as an adhesive for the original pieces may be a sort lived repair.
The coolant manifold bolts are thin and several inches long, a stud here would be cumbersome and could easily get damaged. There is no room to install a short stud and a coupler as suggested. |
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vanis13 Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010 Posts: 3083 Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Cracked the block on the EJ and unsure how to proceed |
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syncrodoka wrote: |
Other than having it welded, I would have jb welded the entire thing and put in a timesert or some other kind of cylindrical thread insert. Using the jb weld as an adhesive for the original pieces may be a sort lived repair.
The coolant manifold bolts are thin and several inches long, a stud here would be cumbersome and could easily get damaged. There is no room to install a short stud and a coupler as suggested. |
Disagree. That coolant manifold can only be removed/installed with the intake off and rarely needs to be taken off. by the time you have intake off, the top of the engine is bare. Yeah, having a stud looking out at that stage can be cumbersome but way less if a hassle that having to take it all off to try and fix it again. JB welding the stud in is the strongest solution except for welding/tapping it. That is also on top of a channel inside the block so if you drill too deep you can cause other issues. For a bolt/stud/manifold that rarely comes off and can be a PITA to get back to to re-repair, the simplicity of the JBd stud is hard to beat. This is already a used engine so likely the next time this manifold will come off is when it's removed to be out on another short block. _________________ 83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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