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Pressure plate contact inside belhousing
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RustPatch
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:50 pm    Post subject: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

I'm installing my engine for the first time after rebuild and seem to have made a mistake somewhere. For some reason when you push the clutch pedal, the pressure plate makes contact with the transmission case where the release arm lives. Also, clutch pedal free-play isn't adjusting how I'd expect and I assume the two issues are related. At one point I thought I heard a spring let go and thought it was one of the release bearing springs, but everything seems to be in place.

For reference this is a 1955 engine, 1953 transmission, and 1956 chassis. Bowden tube with approx. 20mm of deflection. Flywheel was cleaned and turned, pressure plate cleaned/degreased. New sachs 180mm rigid disc. OE VW carbon release bearing and springs. Release arm, cross shaft, and clutch pedal return spring are original to the transmission.

At installation the clutch release plate measured approx. 26mm from the flywheel to pressure plate mating face.
Clutch pedal free play set at 20mm but almost 3/4 of the threaded portion of the cable was used up and the release arm way past -2 degrees shown in the manual. Closer to -15 degrees, which can't be right, at least not with a new disc.

With the engine running and full depress of the clutch pedal you get a thumping sound in the bell-housing which, after I removed the engine, turned out to be the end of one of the bolts for the clutch release levers in the pressure plate hitting the boss for the crossshaft.

To test pedal free play I measured from the clutch release plate on the pressure plate to the engine case mating flange (68mm). Then measured from the release bearing to the transmission case mating flange and adjusted until I had a 3mm difference (71mm). All the things I've read say that every 1mm of gap between the release bearing and the pressure plate should equal approx. 1cm of pedal free play. So I should have 3cm (30mm) of pedal free play but I don't, I have 11cm (110mm). Basically (if the body was on) the pedal would be through the firewall before the clutch would disengage.

What am I doing wrong? The bowden tube could have a little more of a bend in it, but would that equal the problem I'm having? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Contact in the bellhousing
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Bolt making contact (and it's only one that makes contact, the other two are OK).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


For reference.
Flywheel and disc
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Flywheel and Pressure plate
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Release bearing
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


assembly pic
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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lardawge
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

I had a similar issue with the same style pressure plate. However, mine had way more stud sticking out of the nut. I was able to grind the stud flush with the nut which solved the issue.

In your case, I would recommend getting a modern throwout bearing that matches the pressure plate. That is likely causing your issue. I don’t think the original style TO bearings are designed for the pressure plate you are using. Most likely reason you are not able to adjust the clutch pedal free play properly.

I not recommend pushing the clutch in past where the body would be with that style of pressure plate… or you will end up contacting the transaxle case. As you have experienced.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:07 am    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

I'm sorry but cannot agree. The position of the bolt touching the bell house has nothing to do with the style of throw out bearing.
First, the kind of pressure plate with the large contact ring is designed for the use of carbon throw out bearing.
Second, the pressure plate in its not-released position stays the same, regardless the style of throw out bearing used. The only thing that changes is the position of the throw out lever outside the housing, because you have to adjust the new style throw out bearing in another position due to its larger dimension in hight.
Third, the bolt touching the bell house stays where it is during action of the pressure plate lever.

I would take a few mm from the bolt, as these are not relevant for its stability. You see the section of bolt we talk about is only for anti-twist device of the nut.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:30 am    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

pastellgreen wrote:
Third, the bolt touching the bell house stays where it is during action of the pressure plate lever.


I don't agree with you on that one. The lever pulls on the bolt when the clutch is disengaged. And therefore it moves towards the front of the car and that's when it touches the bell housing.

My guess is, that the clutch it self is thicker than the original ones. That is why the clutch disengages later and the bolts move out further.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

mdege wrote:
pastellgreen wrote:
Third, the bolt touching the bell house stays where it is during action of the pressure plate lever.


I don't agree with you on that one. The lever pulls on the bolt when the clutch is disengaged. And therefore it moves towards the front of the car and that's when it touches the bell housing.

My guess is, that the clutch it self is thicker than the original ones. That is why the clutch disengages later and the bolts move out further.


Oh yes, you are right, just forgot that! Sorry!
But my recommendation for solving the problem stays as it is. When the other bolts spin freely, just one mm could be enough for this one.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

pastellgreen wrote:
mdege wrote:
pastellgreen wrote:
Third, the bolt touching the bell house stays where it is during action of the pressure plate lever.


I don't agree with you on that one. The lever pulls on the bolt when the clutch is disengaged. And therefore it moves towards the front of the car and that's when it touches the bell housing.

My guess is, that the clutch it self is thicker than the original ones. That is why the clutch disengages later and the bolts move out further.


Oh yes, you are right, just forgot that! Sorry!
But my recommendation for solving the problem stays as it is. When the other bolts spin freely, just one mm could be enough for this one.


I don’t see 1mm of thread. I also don’t understand why you would recommend using a TO bearing designed in the stone age that is likely causing an issue and is a wear item. A modern TO bearing will last forever and likely solve this issue.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

lardawge wrote:
pastellgreen wrote:
mdege wrote:
pastellgreen wrote:
Third, the bolt touching the bell house stays where it is during action of the pressure plate lever.


I don't agree with you on that one. The lever pulls on the bolt when the clutch is disengaged. And therefore it moves towards the front of the car and that's when it touches the bell housing.

My guess is, that the clutch it self is thicker than the original ones. That is why the clutch disengages later and the bolts move out further.


Oh yes, you are right, just forgot that! Sorry!
But my recommendation for solving the problem stays as it is. When the other bolts spin freely, just one mm could be enough for this one.


I don’t see 1mm of thread. I also don’t understand why you would recommend using a TO bearing designed in the stone age that is likely causing an issue and is a wear item. A modern TO bearing will last forever and likely solve this issue.


You are right about the wear on the bearing, but it won't solve the problem at hand. The clutch plate itself must be too thick, as I explained in my previous post.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

I measured the disc when I bought it and I'm certain that it was within what the manual specs are, but that was a while ago.

I'll pop the engine off again and check the disc, re-set the pressure plate and try a newer release bearing. I ordered a new bowden tube and will reset that with a bigger deflection in it, and I'll shave a bit off the end of the bolt.

I'm using the original "stone age" release bearing as I read on here somewhere to use the bearing that matches the pressure plate (I'm paraphrasing).

I gotta say that I'm still a little confused as to why, when I only have 3mm clearance between the bearing and pressure plate, I have over 100mm of pedal free-play. I would think that, no matter what was going on with the disc or the bearing, as soon as the bearing makes contact with the pressure plate I should feel that in the pedal.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

I have had a carbon release bearing next to a later bearing style, and the bearing style is thicker; the distance between the release pivots and the contact surface is greater on the bearing style. Using one will change the operating geometry to your advantage.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

RustPatch wrote:

I gotta say that I'm still a little confused as to why, when I only have 3mm clearance between the bearing and pressure plate, I have over 100mm of pedal free-play. I would think that, no matter what was going on with the disc or the bearing, as soon as the bearing makes contact with the pressure plate I should feel that in the pedal.


I also find that interesting. Are you sure that you are feeling actual free play at the pedal? The experience you are having would indicate the opposite. It is almost as if you don't have any freeplay and the clutch is overtightened which would lead to rubbing on the housing when using that type of pressure plate.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

Flywheel looks freshly machined. If so, suspect that either one surface was cut too much or the other was not cut enough.....
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

lardawge wrote:
pastellgreen wrote:
mdege wrote:
pastellgreen wrote:
Third, the bolt touching the bell house stays where it is during action of the pressure plate lever.


I don't agree with you on that one. The lever pulls on the bolt when the clutch is disengaged. And therefore it moves towards the front of the car and that's when it touches the bell housing.

My guess is, that the clutch it self is thicker than the original ones. That is why the clutch disengages later and the bolts move out further.


Oh yes, you are right, just forgot that! Sorry!
But my recommendation for solving the problem stays as it is. When the other bolts spin freely, just one mm could be enough for this one.


I don’t see 1mm of thread. I also don’t understand why you would recommend using a TO bearing designed in the stone age that is likely causing an issue and is a wear item. A modern TO bearing will last forever and likely solve this issue.


I did not recommend to use the carbon bearing. I only said the pressure plate was designed to use the carbon bearing. But I still recommend to file down the bolt, as there is enough "flesh" to do this. Perhaps it is enough till reaching the molding of the nut.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

RustPatch wrote:


At installation the clutch release plate measured approx. 26mm from the flywheel to pressure plate mating face.


Are you saying the flywheel step is 26mm? Because my notes for a 180mm clutch are 24mm. It doesn't completely explain your issue, but it could one contributing part of the problem.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

lardawge wrote:
Are you sure that you are feeling actual free play at the pedal? The experience you are having would indicate the opposite. It is almost as if you don't have any freeplay and the clutch is overtightened which would lead to rubbing on the housing when using that type of pressure plate.


When I read this, I thought this was the answer. It fits. But it's not it. I slacked the cable and it's the same and I removed the engine and it's the same. Zero pedal feel.

Eric&Barb wrote:
Flywheel looks freshly machined. If so, suspect that either one surface was cut too much or the other was not cut enough.....


esde wrote:
Are you saying the flywheel step is 26mm? Because my notes for a 180mm clutch are 24mm. It doesn't completely explain your issue, but it could one contributing part of the problem.


I searched everywhere for that 24mm reference today and couldn't find it. Razz I'm getting 24mm.

The 26mm is the distance from the release plate on the pressure plate to the surface of the flywheel the pressure plate bolts to. 26mm is manual spec with a revision of 27mm. I'm at approx. 26mm ... a little below but I think that can be accounted for by the clutch disc. As mdege said earlier, the disc is thicker than spec. It's 9.4mm and manual says 8.6 - 9.2mm.

I have the engine off again today, and the only issue I can think of is the spring tension on the pressure plate. Is it possible to not be able to push the pressure plate by hand and have zero pedal feel?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

They are hard to push by hand. I stand on them to get the arms to move.

Do you have another plate you could try? Something just looks wrong to me with it all assembled and I cannot figure out what it is. I have been through several pictures of known running engines and cannot see what I am feeling. Something is off. If it were me I would try a different plate and disc. Compare them before install, just so you have a reference!

Just for the record. Engine in the car. If you sit inside the car with the windows rolled up, super quiet. Now, push the pedal down, do you hear anything like metal screaming? Does it follow with your pressing and releasing pressure?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

What Jim said.
And, if the pedal pressure feels weird, sometimes the clutch cable guide tube has broken loose from where it's welded. When this happens, you push the pedal and the tube flexes, and the release arm doesn't;t move as much as it is supposed to.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

One thing that I learned from this thread is, at least in my situations, and whenever possible and necessary, that it may be a good idea with just the long-block and maybe even just the mocked-up case with crank and FW, to prefit and pre-exercise all related parts beforehand to (hopefully) identify any potential problems like this before the whole engine is built up. Of course, this isn't always possible for everybody in every situation, especially when one is simply doing R and R on the clutch or some related maintenance. But still interesting to read about problems I've never experienced and brainstorm ways of potentially avoiding the same issue in the future.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

I don't have the body so I can't get super quiet. I didn't notice any noise before, other than the thumping in the bellhousing. I have a borescope though so I can look in the tunnel and see if anything looks wrong inside.

I've got another pressure plate and disc I'll try, as well as a new style release bearing. I "compared" the 2 pressure plates yesterday by standing on them. The spare one I have feels slightly weaker but not a huge difference.

For reference, 1st pic is the release arm with what was measured to be 3mm clearance between TO bearing and pressure plate. Nice, in the centre, pretty much where I'd expect it to be. The 2nd and 3rd pictures are the pedal at rest and the pedal where you begin to feel resistance.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

RustPatch wrote:

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]


Missing the rubber boot on the rear end of the bowden tube. That boot helps keep out water, dirt, sand , etc. out of the clutch cable tubing.

https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111721365
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Pressure plate contact inside belhousing Reply with quote

Very Happy Thanks.

I was hoping no one would catch that. It's one of those "ordered way before it was needed" parts and has become lost in the background of the shop.

I've got another one on the way.
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