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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:57 pm Post subject: Engine Rebuilds |
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It seems that I am a VW engine rebuilder of last resort for people who are on their very last nerve.
I have instructed five people, most of whom are on this forum, to return their engine to the builder.
Two of them were undriveable with the selected camshafts just not playing nicely with the fuel injection.
Two of them showed obvious contamination from sand-blasting. Of the two, one lost its camshaft and lifters within what twenty minutes?
One had a threaded gallery plug gush during the break-in, it would leak when cool then stop leaking when hot (it was associated with the relief valve drillings).
Another had horrible oil pressure. The bearings were standard, the crank was ten-under.
Of the engines I rebuilt fully in 2020 (with excellent preparation assistance from good people), one had been returned to the builder once already, lots of explanations that never did catch the real problems:
a) a displaced cam bearing
b) a lousy pull of the crank gear had damaged the teeth and transferred that damage to the cam gear teeth
c) .013" crankshaft end play, .012" camshaft end play
d) rear oil leak (a fan bolt had eaten the rear seal because the spacer washer was absent)
This engine is 3 years old and running fine, leak-free (maybe a bell housing weep):
Another engine that I had to fully rebuild in 2020 was because of an air filter that was not clipped securely. Her penchant for dirt roads devastated the cylinder walls, pistons and eventually the engine bearings. I was surprised to find a thrust cut already performed and could not find a suitable oversize thrust 10 under crank 20 over case, so we made a two piece shim out of an endplay shim. It now has about 60,000 hard cross-country miles and is running fine ( a few stupid moments with wires and coils):
I rebuilt the 1600 singleport engine in my 1970 bus, Chloe, in March 2017 after 77,000 miles of reliable running, but decided to be pre-emptive. I used parts pretty much exclusively from Air-Cooled.Net in Salt Lake City. I flew out from Pensacola FL, bought a Lexus LS400 to transport the parts home in. That engine now has a solid 40,200 miles of almost exclusively interstate driving, no leaks! It is a joy:
Each of these engines were built in people's barns or garages. I do not have a shop. They have been reliable and leak-free. I do not offer any special recipe, no miracle sealants, no performance modifications (except swivelfoot adjusters in NaranjaWesty), but I do follow the directions closely. I also put on the most miles, year after year after year, of any air-cooled Volkswagen owner here.
There is a lot of talk about Subaru engines and keeping up with traffic, and it makes perfectly good sense if the work is good. I just admire these air-cooled engines a lot, and I find, after almost a million miles, that I prefer the clattery air-cooled engines which have been totally reliable, fun to drive, and easy to maintain. Even today, they are not unusually expensive to rebuild. Everything is expensive these days.
I have never had a Volkswagen that did not get me to where I was going.
Colin
(p.s. will post updates on this 1700 I am currently rebuilding and NaranjaWesty's factory original engine when I get to it. It is getting a "pre-emptive" rebuild at 156,000 miles)
_________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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VWsArent4Hippies Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2005 Posts: 3079 Location: The Bull City
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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I think I missed the point. Are you looking for a pat on the back, or? _________________
aeromech wrote: |
in my opinion you don't know shit |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76937 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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VWsArent4Hippies wrote: |
I think I missed the point. Are you looking for a pat on the back, or? |
_________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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DanM Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2002 Posts: 1330 Location: Falls Church, VA
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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I enjoyed reading it, maybe that was the point. |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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That surprises me. I made some mistakes on my first attempts, but they would have been 50k mile engines that could have puttered around New England for a long time. Im hoping my last build will be a 100k, Omaha to Ft Collins without burning a valve engine.
I would the 50k engine wouldn’t be all that hard to get right. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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VWsArent4Hippies wrote: |
I think I missed the point. Are you looking for a pat on the back, or? |
You did miss the point. Colin is frustrated, as are many of us, at how hard it is these days to find quality parts and builders that are reliable etc.. He is saying that a reasonable engine can be built if someone wants to do it. He is also saying that people want this, and not the crap being sold in so many places. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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SGKent wrote: |
VWsArent4Hippies wrote: |
I think I missed the point. Are you looking for a pat on the back, or? |
You did miss the point. Colin is frustrated, as are many of us, at how hard it is these days to find quality parts and builders that are reliable etc.. He is saying that a reasonable engine can be built if someone wants to do it. He is also saying that people want this, and not the crap being sold in so many places. |
I agree. A reasonable engine can be built. It’s not an impossible dream. Not sure who is building these engines that don’t survive being started. I know that if I bought a Camper Special kit from the Type 4 store and simply bolted
it all into a case, it wouldn’t last very long. The care that is required to build a reasonable engine is time consuming but not technically difficult once you know. Even if you didn’t go all crazy measuring testing the cam, crank, cam and crank in a bolted up case would tell you a lot. Hard to know. where it’s going wrong. I have an older VW friend who helped me with my builds. He is not a Mr. Micrometer kind of guy. He would be like “Feel that, can you feel that. What does it tell you”? |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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orwell84 wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
VWsArent4Hippies wrote: |
I think I missed the point. Are you looking for a pat on the back, or? |
You did miss the point. Colin is frustrated, as are many of us, at how hard it is these days to find quality parts and builders that are reliable etc.. He is saying that a reasonable engine can be built if someone wants to do it. He is also saying that people want this, and not the crap being sold in so many places. |
I agree. A reasonable engine can be built. It’s not an impossible dream. Not sure who is building these engines that don’t survive being started. I know that if I bought a Camper Special kit from the Type 4 store and simply bolted
it all into a case, it wouldn’t last very long. The care that is required to build a reasonable engine is time consuming but not technically difficult once you know. Even if you didn’t go all crazy measuring testing the cam, crank, cam and crank in a bolted up case would tell you a lot. Hard to know. where it’s going wrong. I have an older VW friend who helped me with my builds. He is not a Mr. Micrometer kind of guy. He would be like “Feel that, can you feel that. What does it tell you”? |
yes - totally true. For many of us, we miss a time when the quality of new parts and availability of machine shops was such that they mostly met the standard where one could buy and put it together. That all started to change in the 1980's as we went more and more to a throw away society, and production was moved away from he nations that had historically been quality driven. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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SGKent wrote: |
orwell84 wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
VWsArent4Hippies wrote: |
I think I missed the point. Are you looking for a pat on the back, or? |
You did miss the point. Colin is frustrated, as are many of us, at how hard it is these days to find quality parts and builders that are reliable etc.. He is saying that a reasonable engine can be built if someone wants to do it. He is also saying that people want this, and not the crap being sold in so many places. |
I agree. A reasonable engine can be built. It’s not an impossible dream. Not sure who is building these engines that don’t survive being started. I know that if I bought a Camper Special kit from the Type 4 store and simply bolted
it all into a case, it wouldn’t last very long. The care that is required to build a reasonable engine is time consuming but not technically difficult once you know. Even if you didn’t go all crazy measuring testing the cam, crank, cam and crank in a bolted up case would tell you a lot. Hard to know. where it’s going wrong. I have an older VW friend who helped me with my builds. He is not a Mr. Micrometer kind of guy. He would be like “Feel that, can you feel that. What does it tell you”? |
yes - totally true. For many of us, we miss a time when the quality of new parts and availability of machine shops was such that they mostly met the standard where one could buy and put it together. That all started to change in the 1980's as we went more and more to a throw away society, and production was moved away from he nations that had historically been quality driven. |
I get a lot of videos on FB of people working in grubby shops in 3rd world countries repairing common wear parts on trucks and cars. Some of the work is scary but a lot of it is was absolute genius. In one video, the damaged rotary pad on an aluminum Vespa case was gas welded and flycut back to spec. Good luck finding that locally in the USA.
Many read the John Muir idiot guide like it is fantasy, but I bet decent engines could be built like that at the time the book was written. Still, it can be done. I think it comes down to taking the time to hunt for good parts and being prepared to box up your stuff and send it to a good machinist. Maybe dropping the expectation that you can buy something with reasonable money that will keep up with modern highway traffic, even on hills, etc. |
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Bonesberg55 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012 Posts: 1270
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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The message I got was that guys don't read directions. Did we need a task force to find that out? Haven't we learned not to believe everything we read?
BTW, if you're looking for a job, I'm not hiring and besides, you're overqualified! |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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Bonesberg55 wrote: |
The message I got was that guys don't read directions. Did we need a task force to find that out? Haven't we learned not to believe everything we read?
BTW, if you're looking for a job, I'm not hiring and besides, you're overqualified! |
True. He list’s really dumb mistakes:
Wrong size bearings. That’s just dumb. Spun by hand, it would have felt awful.
Sandblasting contamination? Why would you sand blast a case in the first place?
Gallery plug. I can see that happening. Maybe not gushing, but leaky and in need of resealing. |
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blatzer Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2007 Posts: 358 Location: Austintatious- aka ATX
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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having been through the mill lately re: rebuilds i'm curious, whats' the equivalent retail value of labor on a driveway/garage/amskectic rebuild these days |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76937 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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I would guess a driveway rebuild is less since there's no overhead.
My question is what do you do when you need a machine shop.
Btw, stock rebuilds.are way easier than stroker and big bore engines. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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buckswilde Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2010 Posts: 131 Location: Lexington, KY
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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There are still plenty of type 4 and type 1 cores out there that are in great shape for rebuilding. At least in my area. Every type 4 core I've bought had a perfect case and crank and limited wear on the p/c's if the heads didn't drop a valve. Cams and lifters are always worn badly. Good used german parts are still around and you can easily use them for a good rebuild. They're not unobtainium by any means IMO. |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16879 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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buckswilde wrote: |
There are still plenty of type 4 and type 1 cores out there that are in great shape for rebuilding. At least in my area. |
problem is getting people to actually buy them.
I have scrapped more good running T4's than anyone I know. Between doing a pre-pull video, compression test etc it was near impossible to get anyone to pay 700-900 bux for a complete (but used) turn key engine.
it got to the point where it was easier to sell a AFM or a harness for 50 bux than deal with all of the tire kickers.
Sad, because an honest 10 engines were still plenty good for many. All got loaded up and scrapped.
it was probably 10 years ago when i did my 1904, had 80+ hours in just the long block that i realized the juice wasn't worth the squeeze anymore. parts quality for sure hasn't gotten any better either. Last stock 1600 I built was around 6 or 7K as I recall.
Plus these days 1/3 of your budget is eaten up by shipping, especially if you're sending cases out.
I can hang timing chains and VVT hubs in an Audi faster than I can build one of these anymore...and that job involves an engine/driveline drop to do.
it's a fucking joke. I have 4 more swaps lined up, and have delivered 2 already. people are to the point of "I'm done fucking with this garbage" and honestly, I don't blame them _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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we get older too. Lots of the folks building T4 for a living use glasses and hearing aids now. Ya know. Memory isn't what it was and attention to detail is lacking. Mean no offense but the young crowd can't do anything unless there is get rich in it. I can't even get correct change from the under 25 crowd here. They'll short you a $5 or $10 if you aren't closely watching. That said, I just installed a set of cylinders. Marked the arrow before lining them up but did not check before dropping the head on. Had to use a small video camera thru the plug hole to verify their position. Then realized I forgot a piece of tin and had to pull the head anyway to slip the tin in. I am sure lots of that is going on in commercial engine building due to the age of the builders. Pretty much anyone who wants a quality rebuild has to do it themselves - including the investment in tools. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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airkooledchris Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005 Posts: 2711
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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Glenn wrote: |
I would guess a driveway rebuild is less since there's no overhead.
My question is what do you do when you need a machine shop.
Btw, stock rebuilds.are way easier than stroker and big bore engines. |
If someone is rebuilding good T4 stroker and big bore T4 engines, post em up.
just because someone is rebuilding their engine at home in the garage doesn't mean they aren't making use of a local machine shop when needed.
Even when I was living in the middle of nowhere we had a good local machine shop you could get |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76937 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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airkooledchris wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
I would guess a driveway rebuild is less since there's no overhead.
My question is what do you do when you need a machine shop.
Btw, stock rebuilds.are way easier than stroker and big bore engines. |
If someone is rebuilding good T4 stroker and big bore T4 engines, post em up.
just because someone is rebuilding their engine at home in the garage doesn't mean they aren't making use of a local machine shop when needed.
Even when I was living in the middle of nowhere we had a good local machine shop you could get |
Machine shops that know vws are getting hard to find.
Not everyone can clearance a case for a stroker _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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typ914 Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2012 Posts: 230 Location: Atlanta, Ga
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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Hay Skills let me know next time you have a good running type 4 for sale! I might even drive up to Ct from the Atl to pick it up! |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16970 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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I drive 150 miles RT to my type 1 engine builder and I think it’s worth it because he has always done a good job for me for over 15 years. If there was a closer, better shop, I’d go there. I’m in San Diego too it’s just that as Steve said people get old so fewer choices these days.
We did have Headflow Masters that had a good T4 reputation but I hear Adrian has closed up his shop. He may move and reopen again, I’m not sure. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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