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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76937
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
| My engines are just in buses. I have never lost an engine on the road. |
But who's checking and cleaning the cases?
Even a stock rebuild needs to have the saddles and thrust checked?
And washing with a garden hose it not what I would call acceptable.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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airkooledchris
Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005
Posts: 2711
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
I wonder since the OP is traveling around and doing "driveway" rebuilds, who's checking the case to make sure it doesn't need machining and if it does... who's doing it? How is the case being cleaned?
I use a local machine shop to measure, aka blueprint, the case and run it through a pressurized hot tank to thoroughly clean it.. even a brand new case gets checked and cleaned.
It's cheap insurance. |
do you think there is some kind of f'ing forcefield around a driveway that prevents one from using the resources local to that driveway like parts stores and machine shops?
playing stupid in an effort to sling mud is coming off as just stupid stuipid. |
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notchboy
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22460
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| airkooledchris wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
I wonder since the OP is traveling around and doing "driveway" rebuilds, who's checking the case to make sure it doesn't need machining and if it does... who's doing it? How is the case being cleaned?
I use a local machine shop to measure, aka blueprint, the case and run it through a pressurized hot tank to thoroughly clean it.. even a brand new case gets checked and cleaned.
It's cheap insurance. |
do you think there is some kind of f'ing forcefield around a driveway that prevents one from using the resources local to that driveway like parts stores and machine shops?
playing stupid in an effort to sling mud is coming off as just stupid stuipid. |
I didn't think he was slinging mud? Just that this process is overlooked and good insurance. No?
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| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76937
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| airkooledchris wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
I wonder since the OP is traveling around and doing "driveway" rebuilds, who's checking the case to make sure it doesn't need machining and if it does... who's doing it? How is the case being cleaned?
I use a local machine shop to measure, aka blueprint, the case and run it through a pressurized hot tank to thoroughly clean it.. even a brand new case gets checked and cleaned.
It's cheap insurance. |
do you think there is some kind of f'ing forcefield around a driveway that prevents one from using the resources local to that driveway like parts stores and machine shops?
playing stupid in an effort to sling mud is coming off as just stupid stuipid. |
Do you think every town has a machine shop that know how to check and machine a aircooled VW engine?
It ain't no SBC.
I know people drive and hour to my local shop because there's no one they trust near them.
Think the local NAPA has Type 4 main bearings in al the combinations of crank size, case size and thrust?
Does the case need to be align bored, the crank journals and the rods? OR are they just cleaned up and reinstalled. If so that's just as bad as the poor quality vendors that slap parts back together.
I'm just saying that when rebuilding an engine, it's good to have a constant and known source for machine work and parts.
I've replaced a head on the side of the road so i can get home, but I wouldn't consider that a quality job.
No mud, just want to know his process. These are questions anyone should ask before they have anyone rebuild an engine.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Jetfxr69
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2018
Posts: 1293
Location: White mtns nh
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| richparker wrote: |
Minus valve “checks,” I treat my ACVWs just like my Nissan p/up. They all get premium fuel, I check the oil during each fill up, I change the oil every 3000 miles and rotate the tires every other oil change. |
its not rocket science, right?! i beat the shit out of mine and laugh the whole way. Same thing with my 2002 Tacoma with 400,000 miles on it, in rust-heaven northeast. Its a machine and like any other machine, will and does require maintenance occasionally.
its certainly not for everyone, yet everywhere I go, everyone tells me how much they “ want one”.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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My understanding is that most of the engines Colin tangles with in someone's drive way are crate motors they ordered, returned, got back the same problem and asked Colin if he could help get their bus going. He is not Mr Perfect in many ways but he does try to leave them with a running VW. Most of those engines were cleaned at the engine builder and just need a good going thru. The few engines he assembles off season he does so when he is living in one place over winter, and in that case he has access to local machine shops with parts washers etc.. Most of those engines are his own maintenance. Once in awhile someone will ask him to build them an engine, but it is usually after they have been burned by a crate motor.
In the 70's and 80's we drove across town to the best machine shop, dropped parts off and a week later went to pick them up. Everything fit. Even on the racing motors we built it was like that because the machine shop got it right. If they get it right they made it right and paid for what they broke. Today I would have to drive 1000 to 1500 miles to find a shop that does one item. I tried to find a good shop for connecting rods about 4 or 5 years ago and could not find one on the west coast that knew what they were doing to my standards. I remanufactured connecting rods and bored, line bored, decked engines for a living at one time. Everything leaving a shop should be to spec. Everything. None of the "most of what they do is good" attitude we see today.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76937
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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I trust no one.
Had a customer bring in a short block that the crank was locked. Found the case was messed up and the bearing saddles were not straight which was the problem. Also the.case was already cut .040 over... its trash.
He ordered a new case, clearanced for a stroker, cut for 94s and full flowed. I'll bring it the my machine shop to have it checked and cleaned.
I trust no one.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
I trust no one.
Had a customer bring in a short block that the crank was locked. Found the case was messed up and the bearing saddles were not straight which was the problem. Also the.case was already cut .040 over... its trash.
He ordered a new case, clearanced for a stroker, cut for 94s and full flowed. I'll bring it the my machine shop to have it checked and cleaned.
I trust no one. |
You can't afford to. We used to check every part that people brought us. Sometimes they are the rejects from some assembly line.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76937
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
I trust no one.
Had a customer bring in a short block that the crank was locked. Found the case was messed up and the bearing saddles were not straight which was the problem. Also the.case was already cut .040 over... its trash.
He ordered a new case, clearanced for a stroker, cut for 94s and full flowed. I'll bring it the my machine shop to have it checked and cleaned.
I trust no one. |
You can't afford to. We used to check every part that people brought us. Sometimes they are the rejects from some assembly line. |
So would you rebuild a vendors engine that's not right without having a machine shop inspect the major parts?
First think is to make sure the 2 case halves have the same number stamped on them. I've seen mismatched pairs.
There's a difference between a engine builder and an engine assembler.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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orwell84
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2539
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
| orwell84 wrote: |
| Having lovingly restored the stock heat, it does smell like ass…if we are being honest. Even with a squeaky clean heating system it’s still pulling air through the engine compartment. |
Do you have the plastic disc that surrounds the thermostat cable as it comes up to the thermostat lever? Did you caulk the rear tins and alternator plate where the factory did? All grommets in place?
I originally thought it was to keep the hot undercar air away from the fan. But I did an experiment in 2007 crossing Texas in 107* heat, where I stripped off the foam seal, took out the rear tins, ran with the deck lid open, and the engine temperature did not care! It only hated pulling up the spark plug boots.
So why was VW going so nuts with the sealing of everything, the oil fill pipe grommet, the fresh air pipe grommets, the plugs and grommets on the front tin, the stupid little plastic disk around the thermostat cable?
Well, in 1971, Consumer Reports darkly intimated that your children would die of monoxide poisoning if you turned on the heat in a VW bus. They went to the ends of the Earth to keep the air fresh in the engine compartment and even today, we miss so many of the little details. My 1978 Bus has good heat and smells fine. The 1977 Westy smells bad only when cold and backing up, it was repaired at the right rear corner after a hit, and I just can't figure out where the exhaust comes in.
The 1970 heat smells fine .... after winning the battle with lousy exhaust gaskets.
Colin |
I don’t have the thermostat cable grommet or calked alternator tin and am probably overstating the heat smell. I am missing the engine compartment seal which can also let in fumes. I’m getting there. I replaced a lot of missing widgets during my last engine build.
I really like the idea of a Subaru swap. The conversions Skillz does look like they came like that from the factory. I can understand why someone working on VW’s for a living would go this route. It is difficult to stick to a budget and time line when building VW engines and especially making them “turn key”.
I stuck with the T4 engine because I’m really not a car guy. The VW T4 and AC Vespas are the only engines I’ve worked on. Rebuilding what I had was cheaper, faster and much easier for me than attempting my first Subaru conversion. Besides that, a well running stock engine met my needs and expectations for how I use my bus. |
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richparker
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Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6982
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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I run a T-Stat and I won’t run a ACVW engine without one. What a major difference they make with the heat. I have the proper engine seal and my exhaust exits where the factory one would have. My tins are caulked and I have a foam seal around my oil cooler. Although, I do feel like I was flamed by a member here for having caulked tins at one point. When running a wider stroker engine with factory tins, sometimes the bead of caulk is wider than one would like. 🤷♂️
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PatJr
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Joined: August 09, 2010
Posts: 205
Location: earth
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| richparker wrote: |
| I run a T-Stat a 🤷♂️ |
what's a T-Stat?
maybe I need one ???
Thank You.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76937
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| PatJr wrote: |
| richparker wrote: |
| I run a T-Stat a 🤷♂️ |
what's a T-Stat?
maybe I need one ???
Thank You. |
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6982
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| PatJr wrote: |
| richparker wrote: |
| I run a T-Stat a 🤷♂️ |
what's a T-Stat?
maybe I need one ???
Thank You. |
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Yes, T-stat short for thermostat.
That looks like T1 thermostat in your photo.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76937
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| richparker wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| PatJr wrote: |
| richparker wrote: |
| I run a T-Stat a 🤷♂️ |
what's a T-Stat?
maybe I need one ???
Thank You. |
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Yes, T-stat short for thermostat.
That looks like T1 thermostat in your photo. |
Type 1 didn't have a cable, but it gets the point across.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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dodger tom
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Joined: March 25, 2013
Posts: 1272
Location: Central Coast, CA, but we're all still Ukrainian
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
| Do you have the plastic disc that surrounds the thermostat cable as it comes up to the thermostat lever? Did you caulk the rear tins and alternator plate where the factory did? |
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| richparker wrote: |
| My tins are caulked |
okay, so i get the learn-something-new-every day thing. but, i never heard of caulking the tins. the three “factory-trained” mechanics who’ve worked on my engines never caulked my tins.
thanks to colin and rich i now have heard about caulking the tins. and thanks to steve kent i’ve seen pictures of his caulked fresh air/heat control-box connections.
but, there’s so much i don’t know. what kind of caulk? how do i learn where the factory put the caulk? what bead is too wide? too narrow?
and, what the hell’s with the little plastic disk around the thermostat cable? where do i get one of those?
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1978 Champaign Edition 2 Westfalia
Would never find the time to keep up another classic air-cooled. |
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notchboy
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22460
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| dodger tom wrote: |
| Amskeptic wrote: |
| Do you have the plastic disc that surrounds the thermostat cable as it comes up to the thermostat lever? Did you caulk the rear tins and alternator plate where the factory did? |
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| richparker wrote: |
| My tins are caulked |
okay, so i get the learn-something-new-every day thing. but, i never heard of caulking the tins. the three “factory-trained” mechanics who’ve worked on my engines never caulked my tins.
thanks to colin and rich i now have heard about caulking the tins. and thanks to steve kent i’ve seen pictures of his caulked fresh air/heat control-box connections.
but, there’s so much i don’t know. what kind of caulk? how do i learn where the factory put the caulk? what bead is too wide? too narrow?
and, what the hell’s with the little plastic disk around the thermostat cable? where do i get one of those? |
Well Rich has been know to fancy a caulk or two.  That looks like a T1 in the photo?  You Cliff Claven MoFo pointing out the technicalities. 
_________________
| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6982
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| richparker wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| PatJr wrote: |
| richparker wrote: |
| I run a T-Stat a 🤷♂️ |
what's a T-Stat?
maybe I need one ???
Thank You. |
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Yes, T-stat short for thermostat.
That looks like T1 thermostat in your photo. |
Type 1 didn't have a cable, but it gets the point across. |
I thought that was bailing wire. .🤦🏻
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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I've been thinking about this thread as my T4 engine goes back together. I see absolutely no way someone could rebuild T4 engines for living any more, and make a profit at it. Too many obsolete parts, too many versions. Too many variables.
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Globespotter
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 1770
Location: Newmarket, ON
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuilds |
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My take away from all this is that today if you want to rebuild your T4 engine, you probably better know what you are doing and do it yourself, and know where to get decent parts, or be lucky like I am, and still have a top-notch air cooled engine rebuilder local to you, that charges a reasonable price. I am lucky to have one. Most people don't anymore. That's why this time around I chose to get my T4 rebuilt. Next time, if I am not dead by then, maybe the choice will be a Suby conversion.
There is no right or wrong here - you need to assess your situation.
The problem though is if you think you can buy a rebuilt T4 engine and get it shipped and slap it in, your chances of being disappointed are getting higher and higher.
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1977 Westfalia - October 2015 - Current
1971 Super Beetle - May 2012 - Current
1979 Westfalia - 1986-1991
1971 Super Beetle - 1977-1980
1971 SB Survivor Story: https://globespotter.com/
Road Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=511800&highlight=
My 77 Westy Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647114&highlight=
http://vw-mplate.com/mcode.php?lang=EN&id=30990
https://vw-type2-id.xyz/mplate/72067382 |
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