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envirogisgirl Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2020 Posts: 45 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:56 pm Post subject: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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I've been thinking about all the collective, hard earned wisdom we may each have & wondering about a better way to capture this knowledge for those late nights when one cannot sleep, or for anyone new, shy or wanting to benefit from everyone else's experiences, especially for those of us who may need to purchase skills and services, rather than learn and do them on our own.
That’s not to say there will not be future learning opportunities, yet maybe they will be different! Let's see if we can collaborate, creating a clear, concise( not my best skill), detailed list of things an enthusiast may want to consider when reviewing any shop, or individual for any services. Perhaps we can come up with a list to be edited, and Pinned. What would you add, clarify or delete based off your own experiences?
Things you may want to research, ask about & have in writing
-Ensure that you see completed work, in possession of the satisfied owner prior to dropping your non-refundable deposit anywhere!
-Review that work in varied lighting sources and also look for work from the shop that is older - to see how the work, and materials used are withstanding use.
-If possible review multiple examples of work to understand consistency of quality
-Ask prior customers, if their job was delivered within the original timeline, or how much out extended and if they had to return for corrective repairs - how that process went.
-Ask for repeated clarification regarding different levels of shop service results. Examples - macco quality, daily driver quality, show quality, concur de elegance, if it is paint and body services
-Get in writing, what quality level of work you and the shop agree to
-Ask for a clear description of body work, typical depth of bondo( if any is used) what type of skim coating, if it is a dedicated paint booth, how the paint is layered on, clear coating, and recommended care steps and products for afterwards
-Ask about the re-write and process for any large changes in quoted work costs
-Ask about how timeline extensions by the shop are handled?
-Will you approve an open tab with a local parts shop? If so, how will the inventory be captured and who will supply that information? Also if you will have a price limit on this open tab. Ensure the parts store has a signed written copy of the agreement.(to protect the parts store from holding an empty bag)
-Ask about and understand the parts inventory process, labeling and tracking for owner supplied parts, OG parts off the vehicle, engine, transmission, battery, tires and wheels labeling, tracking, storage and return of or other to the owner!
-Ask about build documentation and how often & what type of updates you will receive.
-Ask about completed product review and how much time the shop will spend with you going over the completed build, a check-sheet, and how long you have to review the build and bring any concerns regarding body, paint, upholstery, stereo, returned or missing parts.
-Do you want all take-off parts kept in a box for you? I would recommend this at least until the build is complete and a few weeks later you have confirmed all screws, bolts, etc are still in place. You may want to put it in writing for larger, or rare parts.
-Does the shop record an intake and an outtake odometer reading?
-What is the process by which the shop rebuilds back your vehicle, completes shakedown runs and confirms proper torque, & that everything has been checked and double checked for roadworthiness? While we all know we are riding on the wings of our angels - those angels are depending upon our common sense maintenance of our machines for road safety.
-Understand the payment as you go through the process and payment upon delivery.
-Please exhibit additional care when considering services across international borders. Not implying these options should not be considered. VDub enthusiasts are a worldwide group of mostly great, caring individuals. Consider if you as a customer, will have any recourse should anything go awry. Are they a member of the international Better Business Bureau or the Mexico Better Business Bureau, or a current member in good standing with local/regional/international VW clubs & service clubs for their industry?
I am looking forward to learning from everyone. Thanks for helping create a more comprehensive list with your ideas from your experiences. Everything looks good from a distance & better with photo-editing, or during the romance of a beginning build. Its how it looks and performs in real life against the standards discussed and agreed to, that make repeat customers. |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8498 Location: PNW
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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knowledge is power. Ive seen a similar list years back and I would see folks come into the shop ask a ton, look around and attempt to not be scammed. It was sad, without actually knowing what you are looking at or actual mechanical experience it will show and open you up to less than honest estimate.
I personally am wanting to start a class for newbs. Since Im not selling you any parts I will give honest reviews and will teach basic maintenance/repair to start you off with a good base of knowledge. Even if you never plan on putting your hands on your own car knowing the basics help immensely. I used to provide this service back in SoCal and it ended up being a mentor type situation most of the time.
Back in the day you could learn this stuff from joining a local club. That might be the easiest way to start your journey _________________ Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
Cylinder Head Quick Reference Sheet |
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vwinnovator Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 1555 Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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We talking $250K min builds here?
Most customers with "dream builds" in mind don't understand the real costs and time frames to build these cars.
Each car has it's own set of issues and variables, many of which are unknowns until well into the job.
Add to that, most shops have multiple jobs flowing at once and talented labor to do all aspect are limited.
The list your putting together appears to be a "single job" focused situation, whereas, you'd expect 100% focus on meeting the demands of a contract.
So lets say I take on a customer with such a list....
-Will the customer pay for my time and shop expenses(rent, ins, elect, etc) while we spend multiple hrs negotiating the terms, setting up meets with past customers and builds, legal costs to assure proper language is used?
-Will the customer understand that in order for my shop to operate while spending the next 2000hr+ or 1-2yrs+ building their car, it will cost $50/100K of overhead in addition to the parts/supplies/labor actual put into the build?
-Will the customer understand and willingly to pay for all the research and sourcing of quality and hard to find parts? 100's of hrs can add up here..
-How about for the cost/time used when the customer changes their mind on things or "stalls" the build process by being indecisive on things?
Fully agree there are a lot of "hack" shops and consumers get ripped off regularly by being unaware of what they are looking for in service and builds.
Every industry has this..white collar and blue collar.
Understand one important thing though.
The shops that know what we are doing have the ability to pick and choose the jobs WE WANT TO DO. We are doing this work by OUR choice and passion for the cars. We know our capabilities and what we bring to the table.
What does the customer bring?? A worn down project in need of lots and lots of physical/mental/coordinated tasks that will consume a substantial amount of our time and shop space. ( one body off build can consume 3-5 cars worth oF shop space)
You want a build with lots of stipulations? Be prepared to cover the FULL cost of what that takes. |
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vwinnovator Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 1555 Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:03 am Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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this should actually be moved to the general chat... |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:10 am Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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vwinnovator wrote: |
this should actually be moved to the general chat... |
Agreed... done _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3804 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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envirogisgirl wrote: |
I've been thinking about all the collective, hard earned wisdom we may each have & wondering about a better way to capture this knowledge for those late nights when one cannot sleep, or for anyone new, shy or wanting to benefit from everyone else's experiences, especially for those of us who may need to purchase skills and services, rather than learn and do them on our own.
That’s not to say there will not be future learning opportunities, yet maybe they will be different! Let's see if we can collaborate, creating a clear, concise( not my best skill), detailed list of things an enthusiast may want to consider when reviewing any shop, or individual for any services. Perhaps we can come up with a list to be edited, and Pinned. What would you add, clarify or delete based off your own experiences?
Things you may want to research, ask about & have in writing
-Ensure that you see completed work, in possession of the satisfied owner prior to dropping your non-refundable deposit anywhere!
-Review that work in varied lighting sources and also look for work from the shop that is older - to see how the work, and materials used are withstanding use.
-If possible review multiple examples of work to understand consistency of quality
-Ask prior customers, if their job was delivered within the original timeline, or how much out extended and if they had to return for corrective repairs - how that process went.
-Ask for repeated clarification regarding different levels of shop service results. Examples - macco quality, daily driver quality, show quality, concur de elegance, if it is paint and body services
-Get in writing, what quality level of work you and the shop agree to
-Ask for a clear description of body work, typical depth of bondo( if any is used) what type of skim coating, if it is a dedicated paint booth, how the paint is layered on, clear coating, and recommended care steps and products for afterwards
-Ask about the re-write and process for any large changes in quoted work costs
-Ask about how timeline extensions by the shop are handled?
-Will you approve an open tab with a local parts shop? If so, how will the inventory be captured and who will supply that information? Also if you will have a price limit on this open tab. Ensure the parts store has a signed written copy of the agreement.(to protect the parts store from holding an empty bag)
-Ask about and understand the parts inventory process, labeling and tracking for owner supplied parts, OG parts off the vehicle, engine, transmission, battery, tires and wheels labeling, tracking, storage and return of or other to the owner!
-Ask about build documentation and how often & what type of updates you will receive.
-Ask about completed product review and how much time the shop will spend with you going over the completed build, a check-sheet, and how long you have to review the build and bring any concerns regarding body, paint, upholstery, stereo, returned or missing parts.
-Do you want all take-off parts kept in a box for you? I would recommend this at least until the build is complete and a few weeks later you have confirmed all screws, bolts, etc are still in place. You may want to put it in writing for larger, or rare parts.
-Does the shop record an intake and an outtake odometer reading?
-What is the process by which the shop rebuilds back your vehicle, completes shakedown runs and confirms proper torque, & that everything has been checked and double checked for roadworthiness? While we all know we are riding on the wings of our angels - those angels are depending upon our common sense maintenance of our machines for road safety.
-Understand the payment as you go through the process and payment upon delivery.
-Please exhibit additional care when considering services across international borders. Not implying these options should not be considered. VDub enthusiasts are a worldwide group of mostly great, caring individuals. Consider if you as a customer, will have any recourse should anything go awry. Are they a member of the international Better Business Bureau or the Mexico Better Business Bureau, or a current member in good standing with local/regional/international VW clubs & service clubs for their industry?
I am looking forward to learning from everyone. Thanks for helping create a more comprehensive list with your ideas from your experiences. Everything looks good from a distance & better with photo-editing, or during the romance of a beginning build. Its how it looks and performs in real life against the standards discussed and agreed to, that make repeat customers. |
Unfortunately, I cannot help you as I do all my own work. Well, except for transmissions. Then I just go to known reputable outfits that have been doing it forever. _________________ Volkswagen!
Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.
“Let he that is without oil throw the first rod”
(Compression 8.7:1) |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22573 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:55 am Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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Expect to pay $150 an hour or more for any time you take up at a good shop, that goes for talking , too. Any kind of major restoration can’t be estimated other than “ time and materials consumed” so you had better have a large budget in CASH ready to go for something like that. No Bitcoin or skateboards.
Do you think I estimated the 1.9 hours book time on this suspension job?
_________________ .ssS! |
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Bonesberg55 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012 Posts: 1271
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:05 am Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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I don't ask a shop anything. I do tell them "Do the recall or warranty work only". That would be the only reason I would go to a shop for anything. Any other issue, I take care of myself. |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:06 am Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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It begins when you approach the place of business. Is it clean and orderly? Do they use professional tools? How long have they been in business? Do they have a solid reputation and satisfied customer base. Do they have any formal training and certifications? I’ve met and worked with plenty of guys without training who were self taught or came into the trade as apprentice but formal training means a person was serious enough to invest time and money. Military training is an excellent way to get your foot in the door.
Experience is key too, I ain’t paying someone to learn on my car. Above it all is character and integrity, you can ascertain this to an extent unless you are dealing with a sociopath/ con man. Despite your best intentions you still might get hosed. Years ago there was a predator that operated a VW repair shop here. He was located right off I-44, a major east west corridor. His specialty was to work the highway with free towing to get a person’s car into the shop then make the car inoperable and charge a diagnostic fee. If they didn’t pay he’d slap a mechanic’s lien on them and sometimes get their car for free. He did this for over 20 years and the police were a regular fixture at his place.
Thankfully it’s getting easier to expose the douche bags because of the internet you can identify and avoid places like gex as an example.
This is an example of a reputable business I’ve known these fellows for years and they are doing well. One of them is a air cooled VW guy 😀
https://www.stellarautoservice.com/our-story/ |
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my59 Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2003 Posts: 3781 Location: connecting the dots
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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Along with the above comments, are there other cars there of the same make, or is the shop a general repair place?
We have a local Volvo place with a sign in the waiting area "Don't bring your SAAB story to me " _________________ my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget. |
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jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3804 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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That looks like some ancient Totem Pole with the two eyes and ragged teeth. _________________ Volkswagen!
Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.
“Let he that is without oil throw the first rod”
(Compression 8.7:1) |
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Manfred58sc Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2009 Posts: 3374
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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That long list can be easily subverted by a dis honest party.
I deal with one and only one marker. Reputation via feedback in the community.
I drop off the work and don't worry about a thing. _________________ Fat chick owner/operator |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12816 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:08 am Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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It’s going to be difficult to find a one size fits all specialty shop, if you do, it’s gonna be expensive.
Finding one that knows all of the nuances of your specific car is even less likely.
A general repair, body, or paint shop cannot stop its daily flow to work on ONLY your car, especially if they have to source & wait for hard to find parts.
Realistically, a shop that works on the mechanicals of your car, cannot exist in the same space as one that does heavy metal repairs, or even paint work. You are looking at three separate areas. Cross contamination is a bitch. Dust from body work contaminates mechanicals & paint. Oil & fuel vapor from running & working on the mechanicals contaminates the body prep & paint. Paint vapors are highly toxic & flammable.
In my state, you cannot have a mechanical shop in the same space as a paint shop. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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let me ask you this...
are you willing to pay a shop to go over that list? I mean you are asking for a 3 hour conversation right there. _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
let me ask you this...
are you willing to pay a shop to go over that list? I mean you are asking for a 3 hour conversation right there. |
I can see go like this:
Customer: I have a list of questions I'd like answered before I bring in my car.
Shop: uh-huh, uh-huh,.uh-huh..... uh-huh.
Customer: So what do you think?
Shop: I think you need to find another shop.
Old vws are an onion, everytime you peel a.layer there's another.
Finding more problems, broken bolts, previous owner crap, parts not available and other customers with daily drivers they need to use for work will make any project cost more and take.longer.
Taking a vintage vw to a shop is not like bringing in your carry for a tune up _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22573 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: What do you look for/ask when looking at a shop service? |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
let me ask you this...
are you willing to pay a shop to go over that list? I mean you are asking for a 3 hour conversation right there. |
$450 to tell you to go somewhere else. _________________ .ssS! |
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