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Matthew Tolbert
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Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 706
Location: Georgia
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 Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:22 pm Post subject: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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Long winded post!!!
Questions at the end if you want to skip to them.
Ive searched this several times and haven’t found exactly what I’m after. I know I’m overthinking it but that’s part of the fun. I’m sure someone else is overthinking it as well so maybe this will help them too. Some of my searches below
Bed slat
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc...=titleonly
Wood slat
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc...=titleonly
Slat
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc...=titleonly
The rivets
I’ve got a few questions about the bed slats and rivet style for my doublecab. It was built 10/23/1960 and going by the drop gates site a month earlier around Sept 60 is when the change from screws to rivets occurred.
I question this but the site states that solid/bucked rivets were used at first and later changed to closed end blind/pop rivets. Not sure when this supposed change happened. If you have original slats with solid rivets or any evidence of solid rivets and build date if still on a truck I’d like to see them. I question it because bucked rivets would require 2 people to install and would have to be done before the rear seat, fuel tank and tank panels were installed in my opinion. Just doesn’t make sense to me. Not to mention going by the pictures on the drop gates site of the underside of the alleged bucked rivet that’s not what a bucked rivet would look like. It would be a lot flatter due to it being hammered flat. Secondly while cleaning out under my rear seat and fuel tank area so far I have found 3 drilled out closed end blind/pop rivets which from the bottom resemble solid rivets and pop rivets on top and look exactly like the drop gates pictures for the bottom side. Keep in mind my truck was built one month after the start of rivets.
Go to restoration/help info then bed slats for pictures
http://dropgates.com/
Closed end blind rivets that are aluminum with a steel mandrel found in my fuel tank area.
The slats
I’m hoping someone with original slats still could give me some accurate measurements and pictures of a few things. The holes in my bed have been welded up and will need to be redrilled. I can locate them from underneath and I know they were drilled by hand and not very straight but what I’d like to know is if the holes in the wood were accurately drilled and then laid in the bed and eyeballed “straight” lining the slat up with the ribs in the bed and using the holes in the slats as a guide to drill through the metal maybe. All of the pictures I’ve found of original slats the wood doesn’t look hand drilled and look pretty accurate to me which brings me to my questions.
All measurements in millimeters if possible please
#1 what are the hole spacing measurements from front to back of the different wood slats?
Measured from the front edge of the slat next to the cab to first hole center and then center to center of remaining holes from there. I’m looking for double cab measurements so I can drill mine but measurements from single cab slats may prove or disprove if the wood was drilled accurately at least.
#2 what is the counter bore hole diameter in the wood for the rivet head?
#3 what is the depth of the counter bored hole for the rivet head?
#4 what style rivet is original? Solid or closed end blind?
Pics top and bottom would be great and these could come from a single cab built late 60 to early 61 as well just to keep it close to my build date but any years are welcome.
#5 what is the length of the rivets?
Of the 3 drilled out pieces I found the longest is 12mm but this is after being shortened by installation and being drilled out. So at least 1-2mm longer I’d suspect.
#6 what type head do the rivets have? Nail, truss, flat, other?
#7 what is the diameter of the rivet?
The ones I have at the tip where I’m guessing is the least distorted area are around 4.75-4.8mm. The large bulged area is around 5.5-5.8mm. And above the bulge is 5.2-5.3mm. So my best guess is they were 4.8-5mm rivets.
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Matthew Tolbert
1958 ragtop
1961 doublecab
1965 Notchback S |
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Who.Me? 
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Joined: July 14, 2014
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Location: UK (South)
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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| Matthew Tolbert wrote: |
The slats
I’m hoping someone with original slats still could give me some accurate measurements and pictures of a few things. The holes in my bed have been welded up and will need to be redrilled. I can locate them from underneath and I know they were drilled by hand and not very straight but what I’d like to know is if the holes in the wood were accurately drilled and then laid in the bed and eyeballed “straight” lining the slat up with the ribs in the bed and using the holes in the slats as a guide to drill through the metal maybe. All of the pictures I’ve found of original slats the wood doesn’t look hand drilled and look pretty accurate to me which brings me to my questions. |
Not sure if there is a definitive answer to the question of how the hole positions were determined. It may have changed over time.
These factory pictures show workers hand drilling throught the slats with no obvious jig or markings to guide them...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9803906#9803906
These NOS slats are pre-drilled, but they're bay slats, so that might have been a later production thing.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/908222119254027/permalink/1714322285310669/
Even if splitty slats were pre-drilled and they used a jig to pre-drill the holes in the slats (who knows if they did that freehand too?), the lack of a jig on the bed would mean that, while the distance between holes along the slats might be consistent (if the slats were drilled on a jig), differences in where in the groove they got placed on the bed would make the overall hole pattern different from truck to truck. One slat could be a few mm further along the groove than another.
If I wanted to 'permanently' fit slats, I'd drill up through the bed through where your original holes welded-up holes are with a pilot drill. Get someone to hold the new, undrilled slats in place and 'spike' them up through the bed to mark the holes. Then drill the slats and bed separately using the pilot holes as a guide to enlarge the holes.
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Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
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Matthew Tolbert
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 706
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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| Who.Me? wrote: |
| Matthew Tolbert wrote: |
The slats
I’m hoping someone with original slats still could give me some accurate measurements and pictures of a few things. The holes in my bed have been welded up and will need to be redrilled. I can locate them from underneath and I know they were drilled by hand and not very straight but what I’d like to know is if the holes in the wood were accurately drilled and then laid in the bed and eyeballed “straight” lining the slat up with the ribs in the bed and using the holes in the slats as a guide to drill through the metal maybe. All of the pictures I’ve found of original slats the wood doesn’t look hand drilled and look pretty accurate to me which brings me to my questions. |
Not sure if there is a definitive answer to the question of how the hole positions were determined. It may have changed over time.
These factory pictures show workers hand drilling throught the slats with no obvious jig or markings to guide them...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9803906#9803906
These NOS slats are pre-drilled, but they're bay slats, so that might have been a later production thing.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/908222119254027/permalink/1714322285310669/
Even if splitty slats were pre-drilled and they used a jig to pre-drill the holes in the slats (who knows if they did that freehand too?), the lack of a jig on the bed would mean that, while the distance between holes along the slats might be consistent (if the slats were drilled on a jig), differences in where in the groove they got placed on the bed would make the overall hole pattern different from truck to truck. One slat could be a few mm further along the groove than another.
If I wanted to 'permanently' fit slats, I'd drill up through the bed through where your original holes welded-up holes are with a pilot drill. Get someone to hold the new, undrilled slats in place and 'spike' them up through the bed to mark the holes. Then drill the slats and bed separately using the pilot holes as a guide to enlarge the holes. |
That’s why I was hoping as many people with original slats still could measure the hole placements on several of there slats of all the different ones to see if there is any consistency in the hole spacing and what those measurements are. Even if found to be random then that would further explain the way they were originally installed. And the more people with originals that could take the same measurements would help even more. I know it’s a lot to ask but it doesn’t hurt to try. And as far as if they changed over time post the year of the truck with the measurements and we could see.
As for slat placement in the bed that would be easy to keep aligned within a few millimeters end to end without a jig just by matching up the end of the slat with the end of the bed groove. But I can’t see them keeping the holes in the wood remotely straight across the bed if they were not predrilled and are having to drill that at the same time they are drilling through the bed floor without any guide. Not to mention keeping the spacing semi consistent from truck to truck just drilling by eye.
Thanks
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Matthew Tolbert
1958 ragtop
1961 doublecab
1965 Notchback S |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51152
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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| Who.Me? wrote: |
| These NOS slats are pre-drilled, but they're bay slats, so that might have been a later production thing. |
Bay holes are just as random as the splitty ones, although the newest ones we see here are 71 models.
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BulliBill
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Joined: July 09, 2004
Posts: 4573
Location: St Charles, MO
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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I'm not sure if this will help you at all, but in the restoration build discussion thread here on theSamba.com of my 1959 Double-Cab I did a bit of discussion on hole-locating and drilling holes in the metal and the wood-slats, and then installing the slat set to my DC bed. I highly recommend taking your time and lots of measuring, and I was thankful to have the loan of a buddies vintage drill press to make clean and precise holes in the wood-slats (thanks again Shawn!). It starts on page 25 of my build thread a little way down the page:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=480
...and then about mid-page on page 27 I discuss sealing the holes to try to prevent water from getting into the bed when installing them to the bed:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=520
Hopefully some info and "how-we-did-it" stuff will be of help to you with your wood-slat install on your DC!
If anyone wants to view the entire discussion thread on my '59 DC simply crack a cold one and start here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Enjoy!
Bill
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Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton
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Matthew Tolbert
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 706
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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First let me say thank you for all the help so far. I know I can install the slats however I like and they will look just fine but that’s not what I’m after. I’m hoping someone that has original slats that were installed at the factory could post up some measurements of several of there slats hole positions just to see if there was any sort of consistency in the hole spacing on them. If there is I’d like to replicate that if possible.
I also would like to see what style and size rivets they used in the beginning when they switched from screws.
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Matthew Tolbert
1958 ragtop
1961 doublecab
1965 Notchback S |
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kguarnotta
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Joined: April 01, 2004
Posts: 1160
Location: Woodstock, NH
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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just working on my '69 single cab. Previous owner had put some sort of liner on it (maybe rhino liner?) Anyway - I restored/repainted the whole bus except the bed - as I thought the liner was in good shape.
Unfortunately there was a leak. Fortunately I caught it before it got too far. I peeled the whole liner off - not too bad underneath. I'm going to get in sandblasted -then some master series paint ...
I don't think I want to do a liner again - as I worry about water ever getting underneath it. I think I will make some slats. I believe a '69 would have had the slats riveted. I can see the old holes in the bed - I can fit an 11/64 drill bit in nice an snug. So now - trying to find a rivet that fits that size?
I know this is for a aby window single cab - but I thought the answer might be the same for both buses?
Any luck finding the right rivet?
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-Kevin
Lincoln, MA
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper |
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busdaddy
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Posts: 51152
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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3/16" is 12/64", sure there isn't a bit of rust or paint in the hole making it smaller?
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kguarnotta
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Posts: 1160
Location: Woodstock, NH
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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ok - it could be 3/16".
When I go to McMaster Carr - my general hardware source for particular items.
They list sealing rivets for holes:
1) 1/8" diameter rivet - hole size: .129" to .133"
2) 5/32" diameter rivet - hole size: .16" to .164"
3) 3/16" diameter rivet - hole size: .192" to .196"
3/16" hole is .1875" - which doesn't really work with any of these.
Doing a google search - I just found some cool sealing rivets - https://www.rivetsonline.com/rv6602-6-10w-gesipa-bulb-tite-blind-rivets/rv6602-6-10w
RV6602-6-10W Bulb-tite Blind Rivets
These are 3/16" diameter - and call for a hole .209" - .221"
I guess it is not that many holes - if I were to just re-drill them. These Bulb-tite rivets look pretty cool, with lots of different head options.
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-Kevin
Lincoln, MA
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper |
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Matthew Tolbert
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Posts: 706
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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My bet is they are metric closed end aluminum blind rivet with a steel mandrel. I’ll measure the remains of the ones I found in my DC that I posted above and report back.
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Matthew Tolbert
1958 ragtop
1961 doublecab
1965 Notchback S |
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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The odds of hitting each bed hole perfectly first shot are pretty big, the bed holes may get enlarged just by lining up the slat holes you thought were "just right", luckily pop rivets adapt to a fairly wide range of hole sizes and shapes.
There must be metric rivets available somewhere, but 3/16 is really close and easy to find.
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Matthew Tolbert
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Posts: 706
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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My point was that he is measuring a hole that I believe was originally drilled for a metric size rivet with a standard size drill bit. 11/64 is 4.365mm and 3/16 is 4.762mm. So if all of his holes are similar in size with the 11/64 bit I think it would be safe to say a 4mm rivet was originally used on his truck. I have found metric sizes on eBay or like you said they could be upsized to 3/16 since they are easy to find.
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Matthew Tolbert
1958 ragtop
1961 doublecab
1965 Notchback S |
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kguarnotta
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Joined: April 01, 2004
Posts: 1160
Location: Woodstock, NH
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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I get that - what I don't understand is the hole size called out is much larger than 3/16 for a 3/16 rivet. So should I be using a 1/8" rivet (or metric equivalent?).
Or to put it another way - a 3/16" hole is too big for a 1/8" rivet and too small for a 3/16" rivet. So which way to go...
I like the idea of the 1/8" rivet - then my accuracy is not as critical, I just worry about the 1/8" rivet pulling through the 3/16" hole.
Who knew there were so many rivet styles -- I may just give the rivetsonline.com guys a call on Monday to see what they recommend given the hole size, and the materials I'm joining.
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-Kevin
Lincoln, MA
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper |
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70bus
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Posts: 575
Location: P.O.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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Be sure to pass that recommendation - and any trial results! - for the rest of us just starting down this path.
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51152
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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A 1/8" rivet will not swell up enough to stay in a 3/16" hole, they recommend holes larger than the rivet because most retail rivets aren't made to a high standard and may be slightly larger than 3/16", most will still fit with some minor force though.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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kguarnotta
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Location: Woodstock, NH
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 4:19 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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well I spoke with Rivetsonline.com
They strongly suggested I need to use a 3/16 rivet. They could possibly get metric rivets, but not unless I ordered a huge amount of them.
They were kind enough to send me a bunch of samples, so I can try them out to see what the finish look is like. I guess I need to drill out each hole? I think I should probably paint the master series on the holes again after I drill them.
I now need to find a #11 drill bit.
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-Kevin
Lincoln, MA
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper |
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kguarnotta
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Posts: 1160
Location: Woodstock, NH
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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ok quick upate - I ended up going with McMaster "Aluminum Domed Head Sealing Blind Rivets" 3/16" diameter .906 long for material thickness .501-.625.
I then got a 7/16" forstner bit to bore a small hole at each rivet location.
I also purchased a #11 and a #10 drill bit.
For making the slats - I got a thumbnail router bit - 1.5" radius 1 15/32" bead height.
The hardest part was definitely the installation. Trying to reuse old holes was very difficult. As I went through the installation process i learned some things...
Sequence is important -
1)forstner bit to make recessed hole.
2)7/32" brad point bi to drill through wood.
3) put slat on truck bed - then if rivet does not line up (happened to me about 75% of the time). Take the #11 drill bit and drill through the hole in the wood - then it will find the hole in the metal, and enlarge it just enough to allow the rivet to go in.
Initially I thought about putting a dab of dynaflex caulking at each rivet when installing - if I had a fresh start - then I may have done that, but given the holes not quite lining up - I figured that would get super messy. I may go back and put a dab of dynaflex on the inside - where each rivet comes through.
Overall I am happy with how it looks, I'll report later as to if it actually makes using the truck bed easier or how it may change the use.
I did a 60 degree chamfer at the ends to mimic the original. On the square ends - I added a small chamfer, as I thought that would be better then having a sharp 90 edge for things to catch on.
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-Kevin
Lincoln, MA
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper |
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kiwipip
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Posts: 76
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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| Looks great, its something Im about to tackle shortly |
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Clara
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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From another thread, think the guy in the SC on the left is installing slats
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70bus
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Bed wood slat and rivet questions “long post” |
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In fact, it looks like the carts behind forklift are full of wood slats.
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
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