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coolbugfan Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2018 Posts: 330
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:15 pm Post subject: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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I have a (new) 1979 Westfalia with the Type4 2.0L engine. I just bought it. AFAIK, the engine is all stock. It's sat for about 4 years previously. It started fine with a new battery and sounded good. It did a decent job of driving around a small suburban block but the road speed didn't let me get further than third gear.
I had a list prepared of what I'd need to give it a decent tune up. Obviously, new oil, trans oil, belt, HT leads, and spark plugs.
Also on the list was distributor cap, points, rotor, and condenser.
I'd like some advice on the last bunch of things. Should I buy them, or get electronic ignition instead? I'm asking because I always hear classic car guys talking about having to 'adjust the points again'. What's better? What's more reliable? Is the cost of one significantly more than the other? Any other considerations I haven't mentioned?
Much thanks, Sambas! |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76939 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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The problem with the electronic points replacements is they are not as reliable as the OE ones used on production cars. And when they fail the engine just stops running with no warning.
With points, they usually give a warning. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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dodger tom Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2013 Posts: 1272 Location: Central Coast, CA, but we're all still Ukrainian
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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plenty of reading material, and much debate.
i’ve had pertronix for years. course, i’ve a spare distributor with mechanical points under the rear seat just in case.
happy reading.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc...=titleonly _________________ 1978 Champaign Edition 2 Westfalia
Would never find the time to keep up another classic air-cooled. |
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Opossum Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2005 Posts: 735 Location: Islets of Langerhans
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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Glenn wrote: |
With points, they usually give a warning. |
Good point ! _________________ "You can lead an aircooled to water, but you can't make it drink"
"Live and learn or crash and burn"
"It's only Cool, If it's Air-Cooled"
Virginia Whiteface (Opossum) the first VW
Camper Special Club Member
1973 Orange Westfalia Hard top, Original owner |
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coolbugfan Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2018 Posts: 330
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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Okay. I'm understanding the electronic work until they don't (rather digital) and points usually go wrong more slowly and I'll probably make it home (more analog).
Good to know. Thank you.
But given that the engine runs now, and I can just stash the old points in the bus as an emergency 'get home' kit, recommendations on which way to go?
Thanks |
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coolbugfan Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2018 Posts: 330
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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DodgerTom That’s a LONG readers list.
I got halfway down page one and found “electronic ignition not recommended with 2.0L FI engine” from Petronix. It started to get technical, but it seems that the old-style FI expects the signals from a points system.
So it seems points play nicer with the other engine bits, cheaper, easier to troubleshoot.
Thank you for all the help. Much appreciated. Now to figure out how to install the parts… |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:08 am Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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I just went to my Doctor, gave me six months to live.
Couldn’t pay his bill, he gave me another six months. _________________ .ssS! |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:19 am Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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Bosch points are junk (unless they have improved them since I last bought a set), so run something else. I run Echlin ventilated points and when PROPERLY installed and adjusted get 20K miles out of them without having to touch them again. Fail to use distributor cam lube or set them wrong to start with and their life can be very short. Running with bad wires and ancient/badly gapped plugs will shorten point life as well. Too tight a point gap can also burn the points quickly. New points should be set at .018-.020" to minimize arching. You can't set used points all that accurately with a feeler gauge, but new points are very easy to set that way, especially with the distributor removed from the engine. Wipe any oil and grease off the feeler gauge before use. You aren't running a V8 at 5000 rpms so maximizing dwell isn't super important. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76939 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:09 am Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Bosch points are junk |
Use SMP points. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Slip356 Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2006 Posts: 394
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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78 stock FI Westy. Installed petronix ignitor several years ago. Worked well & I enjoyed no point adjustment and rock solid timing. After three or so years developed a hot start problem. Would always start but lots of starter time. Had my stock dizzy rebuilt, no change.
Went back to points and problem solved.
Bill @ Sparkwerks doesn’t like Pertronics.
When I used Pertronics I bought a second original dizzy that I installed new points, condenser & cap, test ran it on the engine & kept a mounting clamp on it so it’s timed properly if I have to use it on the side of the road.
My theory on spare parts, if you have it with you, you’ll never need it! Worked well for me over 15 yrs & 30k+ miles. |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2743 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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Ignitor 1 - yes : simple, reliable, about 5 components.
Ignitor 2 - no: complex, less reliable, about 25 components.
Just like modern cars. Watching a neighbour yesterday unable to drive his car because of a warning a Tire Pressure Monitoring System sensor had failed, it was telling him he had a flat while the tire was obviously still inflated the same as the the other three on his 2022 car. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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coolbugfan Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2018 Posts: 330
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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Thank you all. Very helpful replies. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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Slip356 wrote: |
78 stock FI Westy. Installed petronix ignitor several years ago. Worked well & I enjoyed no point adjustment and rock solid timing. After three or so years developed a hot start problem. Would always start but lots of starter time. Had my stock dizzy rebuilt, no change.
Went back to points and problem solved.
Bill @ Sparkwerks doesn’t like Pertronics.
When I used Pertronics I bought a second original dizzy that I installed new points, condenser & cap, test ran it on the engine & kept a mounting clamp on it so it’s timed properly if I have to use it on the side of the road.
My theory on spare parts, if you have it with you, you’ll never need it! Worked well for me over 15 yrs & 30k+ miles. |
the L-jet FI system was deigned to use the electronic waveform that is created when the points close and open as the baseline to make the FI system work. As electronic components age, it is possible that the ECU could no longer understand the waveform coming from the electronic ignition but it still understood the waveform from the stock ignition. That is one of the risks of converting to an electronic ignition when using L-Jet. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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Glenn wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
Bosch points are junk |
Use SMP points. |
Give us a clickable link where we can buy them. _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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airschooled wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
Bosch points are junk |
Use SMP points. |
Give us a clickable link where we can buy them. |
Echlin is made by SMP. The last time I tried to buy SMP ventilated points for a VW I was told they were not available any more so I moved to Echlin and bought a supply of their heavy duty ventilated points. Echlin is a NAPA house brand.
https://www.b4usa.com/echlin/
Maybe Glenn knows something I don't know here. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:09 am Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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what Mike said. Or Ebay has old stock SMP all the time that come up. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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timvw7476 Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013 Posts: 2205 Location: seattle
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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:56 am Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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Points are better, as far as the carbed buses, I haven't driven a FI bus in a decade, nice, & maybe digital works there, but points get the job done, with attention to the center of the distributor, oiling the felt to keep oil vapor from rising from the case into the distributor interior. Inspecting the carbon button & spring in the cap, applying the pencil-lead sized lube to the lobes so the rubbing block is allowed to live a full life. Do that, keep decent gaps in plugs, points go 14-15k between change outs, at that time, you usually need to swap a torn CV boot or two, plus re adjust the clutch cable, rear brake shoe stars, etc.
Buses were designed a long time ago, so be ready for the maintenance.
A solid-state digital ignition module won't change that.
edit: the points 'failure mode' is the gap closing up, leading to longer crank time to catch & run. It is a simple symptom, easy to recognize. And when it starts happening, you've got weeks, if not a month+, to take action & remedy it. : )
Gotta love Kettering (points) ignition. easy to live with. no surprises. |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Engine tune up and reconditioning |
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I have had points just up and die
once the rub block fell off
once the points cracked the metal of the 'spring body'
so anything can and will leave you stranded if you don't
#1 know where & how to check/diagnose
#2 carry a spare part and tools so you can R&R on the shoulder of the road.
or
#3 carry a phone & AAA card... this is the method for many.
had a VW bus friend (they've owned it for 10+yrs) call me coming back from BBtB. bus died and won't restart, but then does start and dies right away.... any ideas? I live 3,ooo miles away.
ok was running ok, and now it's not? yep
ok will start but after alot of work and won't stay running? Yep
ok, you have more than 1/4 tank gas? yep
ok maybe an intake hose popped loose.."wouldn't know where to look"
ok, you have AAA? Yep.
ok call them and you'll be home by dark.... _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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sodbuster Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2004 Posts: 1086 Location: wherever my baywindow takes me.
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