Quality: '31 Ford vs. Old Beetles

[braol]

Being the owner of a '31 Ford Model A and (currently) a '74 Beetle I thought it would be interesting to some to compare build quality and reliability:

FIRST of all, I think the most important thing to remember is to never to complain about something and then to upgrade it until you have figured out if something is really WRONG with it to begin with.

6 volt electrics is a perfect general example that relates to everything: First of all, let me state that unless it is an MG with British electrics (there are exceptions to every rule..be it 6 or 12 volts) 6 volts work just fine.. The other exception to the rule is with old tractors that you must start in the wintertime...but I digress...

What I find is that people compare apples and oranges when it comes to electricity. Here is goes: Apples: "At idle my generator idiot light glows dimly when I depress my brake pedal." Oranges: "Should I".....now insert anything here, like..."upgrade to LED lights, or get a bigger alternator, or upgrade to 12 volts?" It misses the whole point altogether to think this way. It's like saying that the engine seems lower on power so now I must need better aerodynamics to go 55mph.

With both the '31 and the Beetle I always try to remember that it's worked for NINETY TWO YEARS (or 49 years for the '74 bug). If it was good for 92 years, it should be good for another 92... Better yet, what was different 92 years ago with the car that is different now. With electricity the answer is NEVER LED lights or 12 volts. The answer is ALL six volts. Or maybe NEW WIRES...or CLEAN CONTACTS. That's what was different.

Upgrades are a tricky business. That hi-output alternator puts out more AMPS, not more volts. One thing is for sure though...you need MORE amps to get past old wires and bad connectors or ground. That fancy alternator will get plenty of amps to your stuff...and blow your fuses along the way because you need more amps to get through more electrical resistance in those bad connections and wires.

SO that was the long answer to a short question. Both the '31 and the '74 are a tie for electrics, after tallying the score. One advantage to the older car (and old 6 volt beetles) is that some of the wire gauge is heavier in order to get those amps through, especially the battery cables. I actually upgraded my old tractor (there are exceptions) to 12 volts because I use it in January and, well, it has a magneto so I didn't have to change anything...including the battery cables which are now OVERSIZED for 12 volts. One advantage of the newer cars is that the wires are not cloth covered. Those old cloth wires look GREAT (my 11 year old says they look retro...no son, they ARE retro) when they are new, but they fall apart eventually...and eventually was about 10 years ago on the '31. The '31 has more robust connections and switches, but that was because they really didn't know how to do it better and it WAS still 6 volts. The '31 has no fuses however...so the bug is safer. The bug has more electric gizmos, so the '31 wins there. Again, a tie. The '31 has a certain superior 'feel' to the bug with everything because things were a bit more handcrafted. Everything is also 100 rebuildable in the '31 like the generator, so when I stopped charging the battery I just had to get a new rotor inside and I was good to go 2 hours later. The bug gets the nod for the alternator...the '31 has a manually adjusted amp output. But it all works the same in the end.

Body: The '31 wins everyday. Lacquer paint, no heater channels. Drop the mic. I'll tell you another thing: If they had galvanized steel (real pre-war US steel stuff, not the thin crap from China) in 1931, you could park the car outside forever and it would be just fine. If they could have galvanized the heater channels in the bug...well...that would have been a really good idea.

Engine: Slight edge to the bug...almost a tie. Neither has high horsepower or revs very high, and that (I think) was the key. Both run forever. The bug gets the nod for no radiator. An 'upgrade' item for the '31 is a sealed-bearing water pump that doesn't require regular greasing. Not better (that whole upgrade thing again) just not so manual. Both cars let you know that there is oil in them based upon the designs they leave in your driveway. The bug is a bit more complex to get at if you need to do a rebuild because of the fan and engine tin. I can adjust the valves in the '31 in about 10 minutes flat. The bug can take a little bit more neglect and still get you there. Remember this, both Model A Ford and VW flat-fours are BOTH used in homebuilt airplanes...'nuff said.

Interior: The '31 has better materials and workmanship. No fault of VW, it was the era. The VW materials perhaps hold up better because of the use of synthetic materials. I'd rather sit on a vw seat for a long-distance drive, but no one was driving hundreds of miles in '31. I think that if they built '74 vw interiors in 1931 out of 70's era materials, things would probably be about the same, quality-wise.

Reliability: If it could be 1931 and 1974 simultaneously, I'd take the VW...especially on a long trip. Brand-new, neither car wins the reliability battle but you'd have to stop and grease up the Ford every couple of 100 miles, adjust the alternator at night so that the battery gets charged properly, and it would take longer because about 45mph is top speed. There is also no radio. Back-seat passengers would probably pick the '31 because it is roomy back there, MUCH more plush and comfortable, and the windows roll down. The heat is a tie. I know the super beetle has a fan, but heat is neither car's strong suit. In fact, the heater is an accessory in the Ford. But t doesn't rust out... If they built vw's with materials like they built Model A's there'd be a LOT more happy vw owners in the midwest with intact floors and heat.

In the Snow: OK, this is not a quality question, but it's January. Heat aside, the bug has it's weight over it's drive-wheels but the '31 has REALLY narrow tires. Uphill, the bug wins. Going around corners, the Ford has more grip...and no weight hanging out the back. (I don't mean racecar grip, I mean grip on snow at 35mph going around curves and corners.) I'd take the bug because I don't live in Kansas where it is flat.

I hope you found this interesting. As a side note, I have a 1-wire high-output alternator and LED lights in my '69 Ford pickup truck... Yes, if you are going to run LED lights...why on EARTH do you need MORE amps!? Do as I say, not as I do. (The alternator is chrome...I couldn't resist...and my idiot light no longer glows at night at idle...and I still have those old wires in there...)
_________________
In order: '31 Ford, '69 Ford F100, '74 Super, '91 964

[TDCTDI]

Yes, pre-war cars were hand made & coach built, mostly using the same methods & materials as a horse drawn carriage.


They’re great, unless you actually drive it.


At least a Beetle doesn’t rely on 92 yo timber as its structure. If you really start driving that ‘31 around, it’s likely to loosen up & rattle apart. Once it does, you get to decide whether have someone whittle new timbers, or pay someone else to fabricate new structure out of metal.



Link




Link



Gotta love those that join a VW site to shit on them by comparing them to another marque.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[Starbucket]

The VW was built to go 100000KM reliably then being a good German worker you were expected to buy a new VW to build the economy.
The Ford was built to be affordable for the worker and be easy to fix because one was all the average worker could afford and still buy a house. So it's apples and oranges.

[braol]

I was just doing a fun comparo. As some of the most manufactured cars in history...and the fact that I actually own one of each...it is fun to compare and contrast. It is interesting how similar they are...in concept and execution...even if they are of completely different eras. (Unless I missed something, I don't think I joined the forum to rag on VW's...heck, I've owned VW's since '86.) Ferdinand Porsche and Henry Ford were both visionaries and the world is better for their inventions.
_________________
In order: '31 Ford, '69 Ford F100, '74 Super, '91 964

[vamram]

After a proper tune up and driving it conservatively (not "like you stole it"), how far can your Ford go before you have to do scheduled maintenance or something breaks? Either another tune up, oil change, address a break down?

I got my '73 Super on the road in April 2020 after a 2-year driver quality restoration, nothing fancy, just a reliable "stock" 1600dp w/a 55amp alternator. I did "upgrade" the brakes to disc upfront and "upgrade" to LED head lights w/great/super visible driving light ring and turn signals. Aside from a couple of items in the 1st 1000 miles - bad spark plug wires arcing to the intake manifold, replacing a damaged (probably badly installed by me) crankcase seal, and replacing a professionally restored German Solex carb that just wasn't cutting it, I've had to pull over for issues 2x in over 27k miles: a busted accelerator cable at the carb linkage and the accelerator roller pedal pin working itself lose. Both side-of-the road repairs. Everything else has been by-the-book maintenance tune ups, oil changes, brake maintenance, w/the occasional tweaking/playing w/carb/dizzy combos just to have something to work on.

I've taken multiple round trips in the Super from the metro DC area to Miami FL, to upstate NY, and elsewhere in the mid-Atlantic/East Coast since April 2020. Car has great heat btw.

How would your well-maintained Ford handle that kind of use...?
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[braol]

Breakage isn't too much of a problem. When new you were supposed to change the oil every 500 miles, but with modern oils most guys go 1500 miles. Mine burns oil so by the time 1500 hits, it's all new right? Its during these intervals you have to grease the waterpump, u-joints, wheel bearings, steering, and on and on.

Again, not much breaks. When new I'd say the Model A was bullet-proof. Now nearing 100 year old, it's kind of a roll the dice thing. If I had a brand-new rebuilt motor with a new generator and battery I'd go just about anywhere without fear. But being what it is, I'd feel more comfortable getting there in the VW. Funny thing though is that it just might be psychological with the older car because nothing has ever broken on me other than burning out lightbulbs here and there. (A pertronix to replace the points would bring peace of mind I would admit.)
_________________
In order: '31 Ford, '69 Ford F100, '74 Super, '91 964

[jeffrey8164]

I think both are vehicles of love. I like to massage my '70 Ghia from time to time - just because. I'm sure I would do the same to a '31 Ford.
I'd probably find a way to have the '31 pull my '70 to the out of state car shows
_________________
Volkswagen!
Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.

“Let he that is without oil throw the first rod”
(Compression 8.7:1)

[pernest]

Own a std ‘73 Beetle 1600 and a ‘31 Ford Tudor. VW is a few hundred miles shy of 200k; Ford, 110k.

VW just beginning 2nd engine rebuild; Ford, rebuilt new stock engine at 100k. I believe you can count on a good VW rebuilt engine to go over 80k miles — the Ford, over 50k miles. That’s based on my experience. I bought the Model A when it had 56k miles — it made it 3 miles to the tag office before giving up the ghost. I believe the odometer reflected actual engine life miles then. So, one rebuild at 56k and new rebuild at 100k. Great VW rebuild at 115k and another at 198k

Both VW and Model A have front mounted ten gallon (approx) gas tanks and no oil filters (screen only). Both produced in huge numbers with lots of survivors — great parts availability! From personal experience, the Model A is the easier car to maintain but the VW is not much more difficult.


Drive both in city traffic. Comfortable cruising speed for VW 55–60. Model A — 40 — 50. City mpg for VW 17, Ford, 13. That’s based on my experience.

Young and old love both cars!

[Buggeee]

That was an enjoyable read
_________________
1966 Sportsmobile Camper https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
72 Super Duper http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672387
(adopted out) 61 Turkis Pile https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728764

[Busstom]

Anytime the subject comes up, I try and explain to the uninformed that, despite many people's perception (i.e. public opinion) that old VWs were cheap junk, that in fact they were remarkably well-built and made from materials and processes of extraordinary quality. Hence so many surviving examples (not to mention high production numbers). I know they began to cheapen them up in the latter years, but who didn't, to one degree or another? (Okay, excluding higher-end marques.)

I don't know nuttin' about old Ferds
_________________
My name's Steve and it's pronounced "Bust 'em" (cuz people think I'm Tom) 😏

[Zundfolge1432]

Forget the model A, It would be more accurate and fair to compare the VW to Henry’s Model T. A cheap well engineered car for the masses that could be repaired by the average person at home using basic tools. Sound familiar?

[volksworld]

in the 50's and 60's the quality and precision of a vw bug was a hell of a lot better than the american cars at the time...but that also made them fall victim to the brainless, sloppy "gas station mechanics" of the day...and why dedicated VW repair shops became a thing...many of which were also brainless and sloppy

[goober]

[Abone Collins]

The comparing a kraut shitbox to the gem of the Rouge is blasphemy in the extreme..Why the Nazis crawled all over Ford Rouge making notes and stealing ideas. The pressed tin of the Jokeswagon is only cause they were too scared to make steel.. Ford made over 60 steel designs at the Rouge.The foundry cast thousands of gray iron blocks a day.. no pot metal marvel, real steel ..Ford came close to vertical integration.. the complete control of all proceed to make a unit with over 5000 pieces.. Volkswagen people pride themselves by knowing all the subcontractor names of parts on their cars.. 90% of the model A was made at the Rouge.. where Wolfsburg was a stamping and assembly plant..The A pictured is all model a, modified to allow driving in todays traffic.. a 96 year old car, it’s basic components are still relevant..

[volksworld]

when all the cast iron boat anchor guy's were crying about what to do about unleaded gas...yup already had bronze guides and hardened seats...no problem...agonizing over wether to hone and re-ring?, put in file fit rings?, knurl pistons ?, bore .030 over and have to buy pistons? pay to have the pistons pressed onto the rods? heck just throw the whole setup away and put in a new piston and cylinder kit ....
ah yes Henry Ford...tin bodies over wood frames...desperately tried to own and monopolize every aspect of the car's production from owning the coal mines, the railroad to the mines, the rubber plantations in south america etc etc to keep selling the same obsolete car over and over as cheaply as possible while the rest of the industry innovated and built better stuff...

[viiking]

Certainly an emotive issue. Both cars have/had their unique qualities and innovations so comparison may be difficult.

One fact that cannot be ignored is that VW was so poorly thought of by the allies that the sale of VW to pay for reparations for WW2 was rejected because the car was inferior.

Several generations of mostly German engineers have taken a "Jokeswagen" to Number 1 or 2 biggest car companies in the world. Where is Ford? Number 5.

No one can deny the quality of German engineering. After all they put a man on the moon!
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3

[Abone Collins]

[Abone Collins]

[volksworld]

40 hp out of a 200ci cast iron block...it better last forever

[Abone Collins]

GAZ turned the trucks out by the thousands.. cars too..the Russians ended up making model A’s for decades.. hell even the Germans liked them..