What is an engine builder, again

[modok]

On speedtalk a few years ago there was a thread titled "what is an engine builder?".
Most of us on that board think we are such, and we all read "engine builder magazine" but the answers were quite varied.
Exactly what skills and abilities make an "engine builder"?...
VS an engine designer or a tuner or a machinist or an engineer or a mechanic or a metrologist.....?

What was apparent is that there are very few -singular- people ever to exist who have ALL the necessary abilities and equipment.

So IMO an Engine Builder is defined as someone who can produce an engine which matches the blueprint.
How they achieve this does not matter, in fact it does not matter if they even understand the blueprint, as long as they know somebody who can understand it for them, it does not matter if they put it together, as long as they have somebody who can.

We end up learning skills to fix the gaps in the team or network or industry, we end up personally fixing problems we can't find anybody else to solve for us, and for each of us that may end up a different distribution of skills.


You've got three parts, they don't fit right, which one is wrong?
Totally unpredictable to say what you should do to figure it out.
-If you don't know how to tell what part is the problem.... then you've already got a problem.-

Find an engine builder and have them fix it, or time to BECOME an engine builder.
-If you don't know how to tell what part is the problem.... then you've already got a problem.-


Machinists don't necessarily understand bearings, engine builders aren't necessarily machinists, and so forth. Engineers can't necessarily measure parts. Nobody knows everything so don't feel bad about it.

So what does it mean?
If there is no crank grinder in your town then you best buy a crank that's already the right size, OR learn how to measure a crank. Simple right? Same with rods. Same with everything.
With bearings that might be more difficult. I don't know of any totally reliable source for QC'd main bearings, but you know what.... I could do that, there are people who can do that. If you don't trust your machinist then find a metrologist to QC his work, or become one.

Find them, or BECOME them.
And that's how to be an engine builder.

[67rustavenger]

Glen,
One thing I can say about your posts is, You always leave the reader with a thought provoking message.

The post above is no exception to that (IMO) rule.

While I don't consider myself a builder, machinist or engineer.

I can identify a part, of three, that is not working in my favor. Then comes my personal issue of, "What to do about it?"

Most of the time. I buy a better quality part, to remedy the situation. Not an ideal thought process.
What I should do is, figure out what is wrong with that one part that is causing the issue, solve the problem, and make it whole for my purposes.

Over the last 7 years here. I have learned quite a bit, from some very knowledgeable posters, like yourself.

I'm a little too senior to start buying machine tools and relearning how to use them.
So I have to relay on machinists in Ca. to do the work that, I wish could get done locally. It's just not the case here.

Anyway, please keep on posting your thoughtful messages here and we will learn something from folks like you.
Thank you for being you!
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!

[jimmyhoffa]

I am thinking to myself if there is something that Stefan Rossi lacks that would make him disqualified as an "Engine Builder" by that definition. I'm coming up empty.

On the flip side of that, it is possible to pay someone who says they are an Engine Builder 11,000 dollars, and receive something chronically unreliable with truly dozens of inarguable critical oversights in the build process, resulting in multiple simultaneous mechanical-failures-in-progress. Ask me how I know.

Remember just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's good, but it's unlikely to be good unless it's expensive.
_________________
1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[jeff68]

When I was 11 year old kid reading Hot Rod, I didn't understand that hot rodding meant you had to understand how parts fit and worked together. Then the question, how do you make them fit together the way they should and are intended to? Then I went to a trade school and selected machine shop / tool & die as my trade. This really opened my eyes and helped me understand. Continued into college for manufacturing engineering. Worked in aerospace, designed tools, gauges ect. My point is, in addition to assembling and building you have to understand what's going on with the parts as well as be able to physically, measure and assemble the parts to build an engine. Working with those who have experience with these things is so valuable! I also learned the more you know, the more you find that you don't know! It's a great journey!

[Dusty1]

[oprn]

One of my professors who had an engineering degree in both electrical and process control told us that in his day you had to have work experiance in your chosen field before you were let into engineering school. Today as long as your pockets jingle any line of study is wide open.

What makes an engine builder in my view is the fellow that knows the difference between precision and detail for the sake of precision and detail vs precision and detail that makes the engine work better and live longer. There comes a point of diminishing returns that is only defined with experiance and common sense.

Some fellows can put a-hell-of-a-shine on a turd and others can turn a turd into fertilizer. Both can build engines but the second one is the man you want!
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[Dusty1]

[oprn]

True but I have yet to buy a tool that came with experiance and common sense!
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[chrisflstf]

Thirty years ago you could buy parts that fit and worked together easily. Not now, no way, no how. Biggest problem is understanding what the problem is and how to fix it. Most of fitment problems now are crank, case and bearing issues. Really good machinists are harder to find. Line boring cases is an art that few are good at. The motor it self isnt complicated, but not many have the skills to measure stuff accurately when dealing with tenths of a thou or so. The alternative is to pay an expert or learn thru trial and error. Failures are good teachers. Plus you need to be somewhat mechanically inclined. Having a few wrenches isnt good enough. I actually feel sorry for todays engine builders. Its a tough road to make money

[Dusty1]

[Clatter]

What was that saying again???

“You can’t polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter”

I’m thinking that constantly while dealing with today’s aftermarket parts.

It takes a completely different skillset than in years past.
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[oprn]

What I am saying is that tools are not the be all, end all of quality, the man behind them is. Sure you can sit a gorilla down in front of a modern machine and maybe he won't kill himself but I doubt he will produce a master piece for you either!

The tools don't build you an engine the brains behind a pair of hands do. If that brain can give you precision where it's needed and not waste time, effort and money where it's not you have a real gem of a builder!
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[oprn]

[nsracing]

Engine building is kind of like chess - you can tell the amateur, advanced, expert and master -level by the way they play the game and the quality of play.

There are people who can talk a lot of theory but practice none of it.

Same w/ shooting - you can tell who is the experts and amateurs by the rifle score.

Same in medicine - it is all about experience and scope of practice. I do not expect the housekeeping to perform surgery but I expect them to recognize if a person is dead.

[esde]

I have found that my ability to diagnose and fix problems increased greatly after learning how to accurately measure things. Round things, flat things, and the distance between things; it's been a substantial investment in tools, but the return has been well worth it. And I am just at the hobby level of this, though every year I have more "part time" customers.
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[VWporscheGT3]

Whew doggie.... yeah this is one I deal with on a regular basis and is covered pretty well on this forum.

Engine builder: Measures every single part multiple times to ensure proper dimensions and tolerances . Then an engine builder will typically "mock" everything up multiple times to ensure that the parts will go together as planned leaving no surprises for final assembly. EVEN THEN, as things are going together the builder will analyze things as the go together to ensure that nothing binds up or gets damaged during assembly. This type of builder will also provide you with a blueprinting sheet copy to prove to you what everything measured at. Most engine builders worth their salt will then fire the engine and do initial break in to ensure everything is right before it goes to the customer, .... this is a builder to me

Parts assembler: just throws sh*t together, doesn't check anything except to feel that it maybe moves ok by hand, doesnt know what the gaps of his rings are or his bearing clearance is... it spins , its all that matters..... I have had too many Parts assemblers call me over the years asking why a piston failed and these numbskulls cant even tell me what their piston to wall was, nor their ring gap... but they are D*mn sure that it was the pistons fault. and when you ask them about their top ring gap they will be the first to say... oh i set it to factory, but cant tell you what that factory setting was. but they will be the first to tell me they have been doing this for 40 F-ing years and how dare you question my methods....

NSR, i completely agree with you on that
_________________
Schnell, SCHNELL!

I like being wrong, Because, it is another opportunity to learn. If you stop learning from your mistakes than what is the point?

If you have any questions about Forged ICON 4032 VW pistons just shoot me a line.

[Wreck]

A good friend is an Engine builder , State Championship formula vee engines .
Self taught , with very few fancy tools , an old manual lathe and mill . But he does have years and years of experience of feel and touch !
80+ whp from a 1580cc engine with only a valve job allowed on stock empi heads and standard 34pict intake .
A certain level of OCD is a must

[modok]

What I told the new guy today about why I want to SEE the parts before I finish the machine work.
Tolerance stack, of course.
And what if the parts aren't even available?

immediately I get the head nod and comment how CHEAP parts is a big problem, indeed, yes yes we all know the pain but.....

You know what, I like cheap parts too.
If you can make the cheap parts work you can make even MORE money and have even more fun.

There are DOZEN ways to make it work, but you only need to know enough to get by, nobody knows it all.
You can only MASTER so much. So choose wisely, and then go ALL IN, would be my advice.

The GOOD engine builders I have known do not fit any particular blueprint, they just FIND their own way, bordering on superstition actually when it comes to a lot of things. They seem aware of what they don't know, although if they will admit it or not varies.

[AlteWagen]

[Dusty1]