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BaruchYahHallelu Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2022 Posts: 25 Location: Everywhere
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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JEL91Westy wrote: |
As someone that just went through almost exactly what you are describing, and after getting great advice here and from a local mechanic, I would try advancing the timing by turning the distributor 1/2” counter clockwise and seeing if it fires. That ended up being all it took in my case after going down several other roads. This is quick and easy and you should not have to crank much if it is going to go.
Good luck. |
Mucho appreciatto but I have tried this all day today, thinking it could be, even messing with intake volume by the little screws. I will have to try it again a when aiI am sure nothing else can possibly be wrong (which is where you alls great minds come into play) |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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Connect your timing light and have a helper attempt to start the engine while you watch for the timing mark on the pulley. _________________ ☮️ |
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chrissev2 Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2012 Posts: 246 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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I had the exact same thing happen to me when I rebuilt the 1.6 on my 1980 rabbit (car is now sadly long gone).
Fought with it all day. Online, talking to people, "the distributer just has to be approximate, it will run, just not very well, when you get it going, just turn it until it sounds better..."
It would NOT run...
Neighbour comes over and looks under the hood "you got the distributer in backwards" he says. Reaches in, turns it around the other way, and says "start it up".
Starts first turn, and we trim it out with the dizzy until it runs nice, then hook the timing light up and get it perfect.
Is your distributer the right way round? (It looks the exact same when you have it turned 180 degrees off from where it is supposed to be). _________________ 1986 westfalia auto 1.9TD
2023 VW Atlas 3.6 VR6 Highline
2019 Golf Wagon 4 motion
1978 Volkswagen super beetle convertible
1992 Eurovan 2.5 5spd westfalia |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9776 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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BaruchYahHallelu wrote: |
...I took on this project because I wanted to make sure I learn about the Vanagon thoroughly before I hit the road... |
A very sound strategy. It may also let you try out spare parts to verify they're good. I carry spare coil, distributor, ECU, AFM, throttle body, fuel pump, ignition module, injector, ignition wires and more but all have been tried and confirmed. Even new parts can let you down. |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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Check your distributor drive is lining up like in the manual:
Spin the engine so that cylinder #1 opens and closes INTAKE valve.
After that the intake valve closes, keep spinning the engine so the crank pulley mark lines up with the case halves.
That's the correct TDC when you check your distributor drive position.
Do it and report back _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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hdenter Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008 Posts: 2749 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:41 am Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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My first thought is are you at the correct TDC? You need to be at the top of the compression stroke, not the top of the exhaust stroke, when you make all these timing related adjustments.
It is unfortunate that you removed the Distributor Drive Gear, that wasn't necessary. But since you did, did you keep track of the two washers that go on the bottom? If they came out with the shaft, you use a couple dabs of grease to keep them on the shaft when you put it back in. If they didn't come out and stayed in the case, did they stay in place? They could easily have been disturbed if you where moving the case around while cleaning things. Check that out if you didn't account for them in your reassembly. You don't want those washers tumbling around in your case and it will mess up the drive gears if they are not in place.
Hans _________________ '79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4717 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:57 am Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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those 2 dist drive washers drove me nuts, and i had the case split open! they are too large to be inserted from the top, they must be slid in thru a narrow gap in the casing as the drive gear is coming down. you can use a pushrod to swirl around the hole and center them but it still took me forever to get the gear placed correctly. hopefully, yours just stayed in place and the shaft slid right in.
during this placement ordeal, it became very clear why you don't turn the crankshaft with the drive gear in place but the distributor out. the helical gears would walk the drive upwards but not in a simple spiral.... it would lift then jam as the angles got wrong. scary stuff because that brass crankshaft drive gear is sooooo soft. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com
Last edited by DanHoug on Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hdenter Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008 Posts: 2749 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:19 am Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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It's been at least 30 years since the last time I helped my dad build an engine. Maybe the grease was to keep the washers in place after they were dropped in and centered... In any case, the key thing was to not let them get away before the gear was back in place and to not turn the crank until the Distributor was back on top of the drive gear.
Hans _________________ '79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender |
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chrissev2 Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2012 Posts: 246 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:11 am Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Check your distributor drive is lining up like in the manual:
Spin the engine so that cylinder #1 opens and closes INTAKE valve.
After that the intake valve closes, keep spinning the engine so the crank pulley mark lines up with the case halves.
That's the correct TDC when you check your distributor drive position.
Do it and report back |
I am thinking he may be sparking on the exhaust stroke. If Dizzy is in 180 degrees off. Everything looks good, but engine will not run. He would get a puff of smoke (there is gasoline in the cylinder) and it would sound like it wants to run, but with no compression (exhaust valve fully open when the spark comes) it could not run. _________________ 1986 westfalia auto 1.9TD
2023 VW Atlas 3.6 VR6 Highline
2019 Golf Wagon 4 motion
1978 Volkswagen super beetle convertible
1992 Eurovan 2.5 5spd westfalia |
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BaruchYahHallelu Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2022 Posts: 25 Location: Everywhere
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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chrissev2 wrote: |
ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Check your distributor drive is lining up like in the manual:
Spin the engine so that cylinder #1 opens and closes INTAKE valve.
After that the intake valve closes, keep spinning the engine so the crank pulley mark lines up with the case halves.
That's the correct TDC when you check your distributor drive position.
Do it and report back |
I am thinking he may be sparking on the exhaust stroke. If Dizzy is in 180 degrees off. Everything looks good, but engine will not run. He would get a puff of smoke (there is gasoline in the cylinder) and it would sound like it wants to run, but with no compression (exhaust valve fully open when the spark comes) it could not run. |
Yes I will have to check for sure, I have checked it before but it wouldn’t hurt to double check |
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BaruchYahHallelu Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2022 Posts: 25 Location: Everywhere
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Check your distributor drive is lining up like in the manual:
Spin the engine so that cylinder #1 opens and closes INTAKE valve.
After that the intake valve closes, keep spinning the engine so the crank pulley mark lines up with the case halves.
That's the correct TDC when you check your distributor drive position.
Do it and report back |
Ok so What if the #1 intake is going in and out at a different rotation than the TDC markings on the crank? Like at a 180 to t he pulley markers? Could I have messed up my timing? I’m pretty sure the inner valve is the intake. Could I have messed up when putting the engine back on? |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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BaruchYahHallelu wrote: |
ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Check your distributor drive is lining up like in the manual:
Spin the engine so that cylinder #1 opens and closes INTAKE valve.
After that the intake valve closes, keep spinning the engine so the crank pulley mark lines up with the case halves.
That's the correct TDC when you check your distributor drive position.
Do it and report back |
Ok so What if the #1 intake is going in and out at a different rotation than the TDC markings on the crank? Like at a 180 to t he pulley markers? Could I have messed up my timing? I’m pretty sure the inner valve is the intake. Could I have messed up when putting the engine back on? |
No it's fine, the inner intake valve closes way before the pulley mark, indeed like I said you have to keep spinning the engine after the intake valve has closed, it takes a while.
Hopefully the crank and cam are installed correctly _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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BaruchYahHallelu Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2022 Posts: 25 Location: Everywhere
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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One other thing, I’ve been following order being top right cylinder with me in the back facing the front, this is correct, right?! And to clarify what you said- once the intake goes in and out once, AND the TDC marking is aligned at the same point, that’s my true TDC that the distributor needs to be aligned, and valves start to be adjusted at… right?
If so my intake for cylinder 1 is opening AFTER the TDC mark, then closing at the 180. Also that means my distributor drive was correct (I changed it over 180 to see if I was just not understanding), and I may have a misaligned cam or something? I didn’t do a bitten end build, so it would have to be whoever did it before honestly. And it was working fine before too.
If everything I am saying above is correct, what to do then? Adjust valves offset to cam and rectify the usual timing so that it’s firing at offset? This will be ok as long as pistons are in correct position for each rotation, I assume… yes? |
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hdenter Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008 Posts: 2749 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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Nope, sounds like you did it 180d off. TDC for ignition occurs at the end of the compression stroke when you would want the sparkplug to fire and the begining of the power stroke. If you continue to turn the crank past TDC, both valves should remain closed for a while and as you reach the bottom of the power stroke the EXHAUST valve will open next for the exhaust stroke.
Hans _________________ '79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender |
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hdenter Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008 Posts: 2749 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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If you are standing at the back of the vehicle looking forward, the far cylinder on the right side is #1, near right is #2, far left is #3 and near left is #4.
Hans _________________ '79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender |
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vanis13 Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010 Posts: 3082 Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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a few good images here
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9417706
_________________ 83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make
Last edited by vanis13 on Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1157 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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Not being a smart ass. Thought this might help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix90uCZ5LuE _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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BaruchYahHallelu Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2022 Posts: 25 Location: Everywhere
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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hdenter wrote: |
Nope, sounds like you did it 180d off. TDC for ignition occurs at the end of the compression stroke when you would want the sparkplug to fire and the begining of the power stroke. If you continue to turn the crank past TDC, both valves should remain closed for a while and as you reach the bottom of the power stroke the EXHAUST valve will open next for the exhaust stroke.
Hans |
Badda bing badda boom! That’s good to know! Ok me and my brother tag teamed it and found that out, we have now confirmed the proper TDC and properly did the lifter adjustments, as well as the dizzy is now proper. It didn’t start, but now I know that that is right according to what you said and how we tested it. My next thing is to test positions for the dizzy-but it got dark out and is supposed to rain and my battery needed charging so it’s a later thing now.
I do have one question for anyone willing to answer— the green book has the diz drive and rotor aligning to these imaginary lines on the engine. I’m really not sure what to go by and I would like to know how to truly know my diz drive is on the right tooth of the gear. Is there a way to measure or mark the proper tooth? I know it goes on while TDC, and it rotates to position when installed, but I know the tooth is also very important or else it fires off at wrong time yet. Should I just drop it back a tooth counter clockwise every time the rotor seems like it’s not where it needs to be for the fire off of the distributor? |
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BaruchYahHallelu Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2022 Posts: 25 Location: Everywhere
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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No offense taken, first time I’ve rebuilt an engine, or really delved into vehicle work. Me and my brother (who is an aircraft mechanic) had to look at it to just see it and confirm we were right. I thought it would spray and open and fire the park at the same time, he got confused by what I said, so we both looked at a similar video earlier today, actually a big help! |
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BaruchYahHallelu Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2022 Posts: 25 Location: Everywhere
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! Rebuilt engine problems |
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Ok so I know just about everything in the image, but something that is in the book that is confusing, and is also confusing here are the marks on the pulley are switched on mine, in other words:
the v notch goes before the u notch—
does that mean my U notch is still the TDC and my V notch is still the 5 degree BTDC and it’s just different on my 1.9 or no? |
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