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Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300
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Ochie
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2024 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

I was wondering if there is any more progress on this build?
I've been thinking about preping my 1963 beetle for track days, then doing some Autocross at the Limerock Park FCP proving grounds. Eventually being able to try some sort of vintage racing.
I've read the GCR for SVRA and the VW sedan class allows upgrades to 1600 dual port and dual carbs with cam free etc. They also don't seem to require a cage just a rollbar. Different organizations seem to have different minimum requirements for the roll bar/ roll cage. HSR, VSCCA, SVRA, etc. If anybody has insight into what group may be friendly to VW type 1 racing I'd sure like to hear.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

Ran across this. Looks like a lot of fun even just to watch.

Link

frenchroast wrote:
Dusty1 wrote:

I don't think the idea is too farfetched or too far out of reach. I've seen a couple "club racing" road courses sprout up. IMO it should be easier to carve an offroad course out of a sand pit than it is to pave several miles of road course.
.

A DIY rallycross-type course would be a lot of fun and you could run a completely stock bug and not break the bank. SCCA rally cross is also an option but it's a lot more organized: https://www.scca.com/pages/rallycross
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

On the body front...

After waffling over how I was going to get the drip rail back into a fair shape, I just bit the bullet and grabbed the welder, hammers, dollies, files, and sanding blocks. I hammered the rail mostly back to shape, noting where there were definite stretched spots. Then I carefully and slowly built up the edge with the MIG welder, giving extra time and heat to the stretched areas so they would shrink a bit...

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Then the tedious bit started. Using hand files and sanding blocks I buzzed the high spots off of the weld and kept working, with a little light help from a peanut grinder and some hammer work, until the edge was straight and fair again. It took two full evenings...

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And finally, I got the inner headliner/roof-support panel welded back in on the inside (sorry no pictures) and finished up to my limited satisfaction the hammer and dolly work on the roof:

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Here's a reminder of what I started with:

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I'm making a trek down to the body supply shop to pick up mud and primer, and to have some Ruby red mixed up this week. Also I'm going to drop off the driver's door and a pair of driver's side fenders with the blaster so hopefully I can start window and trim removal and paint prep this weekend.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

A little update from the last week's projects...

I started building a couple rotating assemblies at work starting with two sets of 40 horse rods that needed to be narrowed to fit on later 69mm cranks. One crank is a stock VW crank turned 010/010 and counterweights added by DPR. The other is a forged chromoly 69mm SCAT crank. I was able to fit the little 40 horse rods in the lathe. I buzzed 0.020" of each side of the big ends, aiming for 0.012-0.015" side clearance on the journals:

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Then I spent an evening balancing them all, zeroing them out for total weight per set:

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Last edited by RainierHooker on Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

Wow, nice work. You're an artist!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

Spent last weekend battling sound deadener. The remainder if the original Tar paper came out easy enough, but the imitation dynamat put in by the previous owner was horrendous. I tried everything, in the end the most effective removal technique was electronics freezer spray and an old chisel combined with tedium and bad language...

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I decided that the stuff put in the door and behind the rear side cards can stay. All in all, there's a not insignificant savings in weight, and now I have a clean slate to start with inside the car.

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With that handled, I shortened a Taylor aluminum battery box by 1", so it fits inside the original battery tray area and clears the rear seat riser. Then the main hoop, with the bottoms of its tubes trimmed to match the mount plates was clamped in place...

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And finally, both front seats, the mounts having been all finish-welded, were installed to verify clearances and give me an idea of shoulder and door bar placement.

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...also, I sat in the driver's seat with my 8 year old son in the passenger side, and made vroom vroom noises.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

RainierHooker wrote:
I'm nearing the worst part of any build, paint. I know, just to keep costs down, I'll be finishing the body work and doing the filler/primer/prep here at home. I keep waffling over whether or not I'm gonna farm out the actual paint job though. A good paint job starts at $15k for a whole car around here, about half that is in materials. That's just not in the cards at the moment. While I'd never consider it for a customer car, I've had previous luck with providing the paint and a stripped and prepped car to MAACO and telling them to spray it on heavy so I can cut and buff it into looking like a good paint job once I get it back home. If I paint it at home, I'll probably be waiting until April when the weather warms up, since I'll have to do it in my outside carport, making a temporary booth from plastic sheeting. It may all come down to timing.

I have used Maaco too. I typically did all the body work, minimal primer and old school lacquer filler/primer only (and not over enamel paint). Be sure to clean every nook and cranny well and scuff every finish as they are sloppy and minimal with their sanding. I then let them do final primer and one of their better paint finishes. When I got the car back I didn't do the whole buff-cut-polish thing. The local Maaco laid a good finish with minimal orange peel both time I used them. I would tow or drive the car to them stripped of anything needing masking. The time I drove my wife stayed close behind me as the car had no lights, no license plates, no bumpers. The only masking they had to do was the rain gutters and glass (old Mopar, installing or removing the factory stainless steel rain gutter covers was difficult without paint damage).

The result will look respectable in public and even better in photos, in my experience. Not a show car, but still popular with the public at shows (especially since its an "antique" Volkswagen).
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

Dusty1 wrote:
Bent Bug roofs suck. It's like half a metal egg that's no longer egg shaped when it's bent. If I get it halfway straight it's like surfing. Hammer on the wave, the wave moves over an inch or two. Hammer on it some more, same thing.

I reach for my full collection of slappers, shrinking hammers and shrinking dollies...

Which is to say you did a real nice job on your roof. It's almost unbelievable it was kinked the way it was kinked and it looks like it does, now.


Thanks Dusty1. I can't even begin to tally up the hours myself and two other guys have in this roof. Is it perfect? No. But it is way way better than it was and after paint prep, it should look like nothing ever happened. I hope so at least. Suffice it to say, if I was paying to have it done, just the work to date would have exceeded the value of the car. Good thing my time is worthless, to me at least Wink .

I'm nearing the worst part of any build, paint. I know, just to keep costs down, I'll be finishing the body work and doing the filler/primer/prep here at home. I keep waffling over whether or not I'm gonna farm out the actual paint job though. A good paint job starts at $15k for a whole car around here, about half that is in materials. That's just not in the cards at the moment. While I'd never consider it for a customer car, I've had previous luck with providing the paint and a stripped and prepped car to MAACO and telling them to spray it on heavy so I can cut and buff it into looking like a good paint job once I get it back home. If I paint it at home, I'll probably be waiting until April when the weather warms up, since I'll have to do it in my outside carport, making a temporary booth from plastic sheeting. It may all come down to timing.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

RainierHooker wrote:
Finally got the roof round enough that I (think I) can call it reasonably ready for final cleanup and a skim coat of filler. Normally, I'd do a full tilt job of metalworking this to the point where a skim coat isn't necessary, but I have to keep reminding myself that this is a car that'll get used and abused...


Bent Bug roofs suck. It's like half a metal egg that's no longer egg shaped when it's bent. If I get it halfway straight it's like surfing. Hammer on the wave, the wave moves over an inch or two. Hammer on it some more, same thing.

I reach for my full collection of slappers, shrinking hammers and shrinking dollies...

Which is to say you did a real nice job on your roof. It's almost unbelievable it was kinked the way it was kinked and it looks like it does, now.

frenchroast wrote:
Geo Metro's used to be de rigueur for rally cross. Cheap, plentiful, and no risk of impure thoughts.


Oh, no. Not the poor misunderstood Metros. Rolling Eyes

Metros never got the credit they're due. Same fuel economy as our Prius. Less weight. Less complexity.

You don't appreciate what you got 'til it's gone. Rolling Eyes


I can tell it's an SCCA Rally weekend when I see the teams trailering up the highway past here. Might check it out some time when we're not going somewhere else.


We have several SCCA Hillclimbs semi- locally. They seem to be a little more balls to the wall compared to SCCA Rally. Built Bugs are still competitive.


We would just as soon sit up in the bleachers at an SCCA weekend at Watkins Glen. We like to see rich guys wreck Porsches. Twisted Evil If we have a craving for dirt short track Outlaw Speedway is twenty minutes up the road from The Glen.

Or we can just hang out at The Lodge at the edge of town. They have a ton of F- 1 memorabilia including dried out winner's wreaths from when F- 1 used to race at The Glen.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

RainierHooker wrote:
Oh, don’t even get me started on rallycross. One of our clients at the shop (we built him a street car) is an instructor at the DirtFish Rally School. I’ve had a few impure thoughts about a thrash-worthy car. Not this particular one though… (maybe)

Geo Metro's used to be de rigueur for rally cross. Cheap, plentiful, and no risk of impure thoughts.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

Oh, don’t even get me started on rallycross. One of our clients at the shop (we built him a street car) is an instructor at the DirtFish Rally School. I’ve had a few impure thoughts about a thrash-worthy car. Not this particular one though… (maybe)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

Dusty1 wrote:

I don't think the idea is too farfetched or too far out of reach. I've seen a couple "club racing" road courses sprout up. IMO it should be easier to carve an offroad course out of a sand pit than it is to pave several miles of road course.
.

A DIY rallycross-type course would be a lot of fun and you could run a completely stock bug and not break the bank. SCCA rally cross is also an option but it's a lot more organized: https://www.scca.com/pages/rallycross
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

SparksLP wrote:
Awesome idea for a build, I'll be following this one! Do you have links to the old FIA/SCCA rules for Beetles? I would love to get my Bug to be able to compete in some form of racing, that would give me a base to plan my build! Good luck!


I would consider the classic desert racing Class 11. I have considered the classic Class 11. It's the stock Bug class.

It's rough service. I have my doubts I'm entirely up to it even though I have always enjoyed thrashing old Bugs offroad.

I would build up a semi- beater although almost no one does. They build 'em as nice as their budget will allow. There are some really nice Class 11 cars out there.

The Class 11 rule books says "stock" 1600 single port. We do a few sneaky tricks to the engines. They turn out healthier than most stock 1600s ever hoped to be.

The typical Class 11 is built up with a stout roll cage and suspension modifications. A Bug that has previously been "wrecked" is an ideal foundation. If you're going to race it for reelz you're going to beat on it. If you're going to beat on it you might wreck it. See where this is going?

My idea is to build a main car and a backup. Build a complete set of spares, spare engine(s), spare transmission(s), spare beam(s). Truck it all out to my buddy's place in Arizona and go racin'.


I'm sure there is more to it than meets the eye. For example I see a lot of "Baja" Bugs that are woefully short of being real race cars. Nuthin' wrong with that. Build what you like and build what you can can afford. Just don't expect to build a competitive race car on the super cheap.


I wish we had something like Class 11 back East. I've been looking at various gravel pits and quarries. There are advantages to setting up a short "desert" course in a sand pit. We don't need to dink around with the local zoning board if there's heavy equipment at work in the pit all week long. We certainly don't need to mess with the BLM or The Sierra Club on "public" land. I reckon the challenge would be to make a sand pit safe for competitors and spectators as well as bein' "a good neighbor".

I don't think the idea is too farfetched or too far out of reach. I've seen a couple "club racing" road courses sprout up. IMO it should be easier to carve an offroad course out of a sand pit than it is to pave several miles of road course.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:

You're a likely candidate for Saturday Night "Peashooter" drag racing at PIR.

We have been fun and grudge racing VW cars for the last two years, weather/track schedule permitting.

We don't have designs on a new racing class. But that would be fun to entertain.

Currently we have a couple stock bugs, a high 13 second dune buggie and a mid 14 second beetle that participate on a fairly regular basis. Very Happy

Bring your car down and join us for a fun night.
You never know, what can happen in the heat of the night down here in PDX country.

A goal is to also get 67JG out there this summer! It will be a challenge with work and school but progress is being made! The best part of Saturday night drag racing at PIR is you just show up, pass safety inspection, make as many runs as you want, and hang out!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

Finally got the roof round enough that I (think I) can call it reasonably ready for final cleanup and a skim coat of filler. Normally, I'd do a full tilt job of metalworking this to the point where a skim coat isn't necessary, but I have to keep reminding myself that this is a car that'll get used and abused...

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Then I started un-pretzel-ing the inner roof/headliner support that had to get cut out at the beginning of the process. It started out in a "W" shape. Now its almost roof/headliner support shaped...

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And then because I was tired of hammering and dollying, I changed gears and chipped out all of the sound deadener in the engine bay...

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I need a shower
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

Verifying figment of the main hoop…

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It’s pretty good, I need the lower legs to bend inboard just a smidgeon more to clear the little shelf in the pan perimeter. Doing so, and cutting the bottoms of the legs to be flush to the plane of the pan, will bring the hoop down a little less than an inch. Still plenty of clearance off the seat, and it’ll help with headliner clearance. Yes, I’m putting a headliner back in it, mostly so I don’t have to get too crazy body-working the inside of the roof.

I also made the feet for the cage…

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I still have to do the ones for the bars that will attach to the front firewall, but they are going to be a bit more odd-shaped to fit around the steering column and pressed-in shape of the firewall. I made them to SCTA cage specs, which is overkill for an SCCA cage, but will allow me to run at SCTA land speed events down the road with the addition of a few more bars without completely remaking the cage. Each foot and backing plate is 1/4” mild steel:

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The plan is to get the rear half of the cage tacked together at home (where the car is currently) and when the body work and (an) engine is done, I’ll drive it down to the shop to do all the real welding and the front half of the cage on the big TIG machine. Fitting the front half of the cage is going to have to be done at the shop anyway, since I’ll have to make some creative bends for the door bars, and that’s where the bender is.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

Just got off the phone for the second time today with a committee member of SOVREN. Looks like its full steam ahead with the build, they seem quite enthusiastic about a race prepped beetle. I've now got a deadline for the car being functionally, but not totally, done. They are holding a licensing event at the end of April, so I've got to get cracking. Looks like I'll be having some late nights.

The engine-case for the proper build is in the mail and on its way somewhere between here and Brother's Machine. Hopefully, it gets finished ands comes back in time to be built by April. If not, looks like that "spare" engine might come into play. I think I have enough bits and pieces around here to build a milder but still reasonable long block out of it.

Going back through the responses so far in this thread, I'd like to say that there shouldn't be too much holding folks back from bringing beetles out in the track even if there aren't others to play with. We're the plucky underdogs. We're supposed to be up against supposedly "sportier" cars. By far the most popular cars in the small bore class in SOVREN (and in the SCCA back in the day) are Sprites and Midgets. A stock Mk.II Sprite has 46HP pushing 1540lbs of car compared to a stock beetle's 40 Horsepower and 1600lbs. Surely, there's enough knowledge and ambition in the ACVW world to narrow that gap through tuning and trickery.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

Dusty1 wrote:
Difficulty is it's not racing if you don't have anyone in your class to race.


Indeed. That is why I'm pursuing SOVREN. While there aren't many other bugs (there's one 66 beetle that shows up from time to time) there is a regular showing of MGs, Healeys, 356's and Cortinas, exactly the kinds of cars that Oettinger was gunning for in the early '60s.

I've mentioned the ICSCC, and I intend to run there too, but there just isn't the same mix of cars there. Their nostalgia class rules are much less stringent, so a less period-correct car (think early beetle with a 1600DP) may be more welcome. They put on a series of time-distance-rallys that might be worth getting into regardless of the car.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
We don't have designs on a new racing class. But that would be fun to entertain.


Big sanctioning bodies are generally death to the little guy. NHRA is the Cubic Money show especially since they cherry picked and ate up the best of the IHRA tracks. That left places like Lebanon Valley with a thriving but unsanctioned tribe of bracket racers.

Same thing happened with NASCAR. They've been tryin' (forever!) to go full- on Cubic Money without alienating their weekly racers. They stepped in and slapped the NASCAR Weekly Racing signage on any short track where they thought they could make a buck. Lotta kids run the Young Guns or Street Stock classes entertaining their NASCAR dreams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUC9ga1KWAY


We were at Loudon the weekend Tony Stewart showed up at Loudon with Kyle Larson in tow. We have video of Mike Waltrip comin' out of an infield Porta- Potty from that weekend. Kyle was somewhat under our radar, previously. Anyway, Kyle and Tony hopped in a helicopter in the infield and left after the Modified show. Kyle wrecked a sprint car at Eldora that night. If I remember correctly they made it back to Loudon for the Cup race. For me that's the impressive part. New Hampshire out to almost Indiana and then back again for the big show. That indicates the sort of resources these people have.

Stu Friesen almost made the big show. He is a force to be reckoned with in a dirt modified.

Ryan Preece made the big show. Like Larson, Preece received the Tony Stewart Seal of Approval. If Tony says you're fast, you're fast.



Difficulty is it's not racing if you don't have anyone in your class to race.

It's a hell of a lot easier to build car count and healthy competition when your cars are built from inexpensive and readily available parts. You need to check off all the boxes if it's going to work as a real racing series or even as a vintage racing series.

http://www.vwfuncup.eu/en

If you're gonna race, you're gonna travel. Howe 'bout a ticket to Europe for a whole track full of "Bugs"?! Cool Cool

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: Red - Vintage Road Racing '63 Oettinger TSV1300 Reply with quote

SparksLP wrote:
Do you have links to the old FIA/SCCA rules for Beetles?


There isn't a specific rulebook for beetles. Its mostly a matter of getting an appropriate year rulebook and figuring out which class your car fits in, and then building it to the limits of that particular class. For the FIA 99% of the cars discussed here would be classed in one of the "Production" or "Touring" classes, or in FIA parlance Groups 1 through 4.

Group 1 cars are essentially bone stock sedans and coupes.
Group 2 cars are "improved" stock sedans and coupes with very narrow rules for what can and can't be changed from strictly showroom-stock
Group 3 is "Grand Touring" cars, limited production (in the case of the '64 rulebook a minimum of 100 must be factory produced) versions of otherwise stock cars, more modifications are allowed, but displacement and other dimensions are restricted.
Group 4, depending on the year is defined as "Sports Cars" or "Special Touring" and is essentially the same as Group 3, but camshafts, carburetion, exhaust, et al is open. Displacement and body modifications are still fairly restricted.

For example, a 100% stock 1963 beetle would be a Group 1 Production car. If you took the carpet and headlining out of it, blueprinted the engine, and re-adjusted the suspension it would become a Group 2 car. If you then sent it to Oettigner and they put their "production" 1300cc engine in it, it would become a Group 3 car. If then you took it home, swapped the cam, put a new exhaust on it, and changed out the wheels and swaybars, it would be a Group 4 car.

Above the production and touring classes are the modified classes. Thats where body and engine changes start looking like the wild west. For purposes of this thread though, it's moot. SOVREN, the SCCA Vintage Series, and most other Vintage Racing bodies don't allow cars conforming to those classes unless they are original race cars with provenance from the era.

To go vintage racing (in SOVREN at least, and to my knowledge) you basically have to choose a year, get that year's FIA or SCCA rulebook and build your car to that plus any other restrictions that may pop up due to safety. Most of the old rulebooks can be dug up without too much trouble. FWIW, I have copies of the 1962 and 1964 FIA rulebooks that I'm going off of.
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