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Flat4Tom
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Kingsport TN
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 Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 11:27 am Post subject: Pulling t3 engine with T4 Automatic transmission Question |
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Hello all, I have kind of a different situation I hope someone can help me with...
I have a '69 T3 Fastback with a T4 full automatic transmission in it. I had to pull the motor to fix it's issues but I had never pulled a motor attached to an automatic trans. I ended up pulling the T3 motor out with the torque converter attached due to the shop manual T3 again, not matching what I was seeing in the car. I could not figure out how to unbolt the converter from the flex plate. I've since figured this issue out.
Anyway I got it out fine, no carnage that I know of.
Here is my question, in the shop manual it says that if you pull the motor with the converter you will need to replace a seal that will get crushed during the process.
Does anyone know if that is true with a T4 transmission, and if it is, where can I find that seal? Part number, vendor? I have done numerous searches online and have come up empty.
Any info would be appreciated
Thx
Tom
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'69 Fastback - automatic - 'Flamer'
| MEANIRISHMOFO wrote: |
| The whole Patina thing has gone way too far. A beat up piece of shit does not have patina. It's a beat up piece of shit. That car is a good base for a restoration, Not a coat of wax. |
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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 3582
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Pulling t3 engine with T4 Automatic transmission Question |
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Ideally with most automatics, once you disturb the Torque Converter Seal by pulling the TC out, you want a new seal if you can get one before reinstalling the TC. Esp if the unit has miles/age on it. The wear surface will rarely be like a New Transmission unless you install a Speedi-Sleeve to account for groove wear from years of a seal riding on the nose of the Torque Converter.
I'm sure Ray Greenwood will chime in for what part to use. I don't know if you can use the TC seal of the 003 Automatic or not, he'll know for sure though.
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Pulling t3 engine with T4 Automatic transmission Question |
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| jlrftype7 wrote: |
Ideally with most automatics, once you disturb the Torque Converter Seal by pulling the TC out, you want a new seal if you can get one before reinstalling the TC. Esp if the unit has miles/age on it. The wear surface will rarely be like a New Transmission unless you install a Speedi-Sleeve to account for groove wear from years of a seal riding on the nose of the Torque Converter.
I'm sure Ray Greenwood will chime in for what part to use. I don't know if you can use the TC seal of the 003 Automatic or not, he'll know for sure though. |
This is pretty commonly true.
To the OP of this thread.....just to clarify.
So, did you remove the transmission and engine as a unit and then seperate them leaving the Torque converter attached to the back of the flexplate?
In other words you pulled the Torque converter off of the transmission right?
Yes, you should replace the Torque converter seal. And.....very importantly.....when the Torque converter comes off this way, about 100% of the time, the skinny center oil pump driveshaft gets pulled out of mesh in the oil pump.
You need to very carefully shine a flashlight up the skinny bore and verify that you get the end of it back into the oil pump before installing the TC.
Many, many people have done this wrong and reinstall the transmission.....and presto....no oil pressure and no gears.
Ok.....so the type 4 transmission......IS......a type 3 003 transmission. Except for a gear ratio change in final drive in certain years and some valve body settings and a few external bracket and wiring differences....
The type 4 cars....411's and 412's used a type 3 automatic. Same unit.
So doing any work on it the brown Bentley manual for type 3 fully applies. Ray |
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Flat4Tom
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Kingsport TN
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Pulling t3 engine with T4 Automatic transmission Question |
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Thank you for the reply Ray. To answer your motor pull question, I did not pull it as a single unit. The transmission is still in the car, I pulled the engine separately with the converter attached.
Once I figured out how to unbolt the converter from the engine, I did that.
Where is the torque converter seal? In the torque converter itself? Would you happen to know a part number or a link to a site that carries them?
I will check the small driveshaft as well.
Thanks for the info.
Tom
_________________
'69 Fastback - automatic - 'Flamer'
| MEANIRISHMOFO wrote: |
| The whole Patina thing has gone way too far. A beat up piece of shit does not have patina. It's a beat up piece of shit. That car is a good base for a restoration, Not a coat of wax. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Pulling t3 engine with T4 Automatic transmission Question |
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| Flat4Tom wrote: |
Thank you for the reply Ray. To answer your motor pull question, I did not pull it as a single unit. The transmission is still in the car, I pulled the engine separately with the converter attached.
Once I figured out how to unbolt the converter from the engine, I did that.
Where is the torque converter seal? In the torque converter itself? Would you happen to know a part number or a link to a site that carries them?
I will check the small driveshaft as well.
Thanks for the info.
Tom |
I am typically NOT the one who would tell someone that you need to buy the manual. But in this case you should buy the brown Bentley type 3 manual.
You can get this cheaper than this used. I just wanted to show you which manual to get.
https://www.amazon.com/Volkswagen-Fastback-Squareb...1400302124
I will go through later tonight and find the seal part # for you. But....there is a requirement for these transmissions that you cannot ignore.
They MUST have the seals between teh automatic section that runs on STF and the final drive section that has gear oil...changed every 7 years or 70k miles.
Yes, they can last a lot longer....or not. When any of these three seals fails, ATF fluid drains into the final drive and destroys the bearings and ring and pinion gears. Many have died this way. I killed two transmissions in my 411 before I found this information.
There are....IIRC...three seals that need to be changed. They are simple work when the transmission is out of the car. Not expensive or invasive. I believe there is a paper gasket, a shaft seal and there is the governor drive shaft seal which is a little rubber ring.
I will get this together for you with part #'s. Ray |
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Flat4Tom
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Kingsport TN
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Pulling t3 engine with T4 Automatic transmission Question |
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A couple quick questions Ray...
Does the small input shaft for the oil pump you mentioned above stick out a particular distance when inserted back in, or is it flush with the end of the input shaft?
Also, does the torque converter need to be 'clocked' like GM torque converters? or does it just slid onto the input shaft?
Thank you.
Tom
_________________
'69 Fastback - automatic - 'Flamer'
| MEANIRISHMOFO wrote: |
| The whole Patina thing has gone way too far. A beat up piece of shit does not have patina. It's a beat up piece of shit. That car is a good base for a restoration, Not a coat of wax. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Pulling t3 engine with T4 Automatic transmission Question |
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| Flat4Tom wrote: |
A couple quick questions Ray...
Does the small input shaft for the oil pump you mentioned above stick out a particular distance when inserted back in, or is it flush with the end of the input shaft?
Also, does the torque converter need to be 'clocked' like GM torque converters? or does it just slid onto the input shaft?
Thank you.
Tom |
Its been so long since I worked on a VW auto that I do not know the answer to the "clocking" question. Again, you will have problems unless you get a Bentley manual. If I have time I will read through the install sequence in my manual and try to answer that one for the governor seal.
Ido know it has to be in a specific distance to make sure it seals and does not rub the governor shaft in the wrong place.
As for parts:
You have two sealing operations you really SHOULD do now while the engine is out. It would be a risky waste of effort to only do the torque converter seal.
Converter seal:
Essentially the seal that is at the torque converter is sealing between the converter and the fixed, splined snout on the final drive carrier.
Part #: 003 519 089 B. This is a 42mm x 55mm x 7mm seal size
CIP-1 has it
https://www2.cip1.com/vwc-003-519-089-d/
Pelican parts has it:
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/003519089D.htm?pn=003-519-089-D-M101
The other sealing operation requires replacing the seal on the OTHER end of the pinion shaft. To do this simply means that with the transmission out of the car and on a flat surface, take off the four nuts that hold the forward section to the final drive and sperate them.
Once apart you will find a big paper gasket, a large o-ring for the joint between case sections and you will see the pinion shaft seal that is on the other end of the shaft where the converter seal is.
The pinion shaft seal is kind of optional at this stage (I would personally do it). But if they are not leaking at either end of the pinion shaft then you can leave them but they are important, especially the pinion shaft seal that is farthest from the converter.
Here is the gist.
When you pull out the old converter seal....you will see another smaller shaft seal underneath it. The converter seal.... seals the converter joint. The seal underneath seals the pinion shaft. The one at the opposite end of the pinion shaft seals the pinion shaft from ingress of ATF and so does the pinion shaft seal at the converter. This is why they are important.
While replacing the inner pinion seal requires you to pull the gear carrier out of the final drive....this is not a huge issue. As long as when you remove the axle output flange adjusters by counting exactly how many turns and recording that and replacing them the same way....nothing adjustment wise will be disturbed.
Pinion shaft seal: 003 519 085 A. You need two. They are a they are a 30mm x 42mm x 7mm seal size.
The paper gasket and the big o-ring...my parts book does not have a seperate part # for. They are both contained under this part number which is a VW gasket set 003 598 001.
What I would do, if you have a good running automatic transmission...and they do not grow on trees anymore...and you want to preserve it as much as possible....I would do a complete external re-seal.
This is NOT invasive. Meaning, you do not need to do any disassembly of the automatic section and other than taking the differential carrier out of the diff case section....you are not disassembling the differential or changing any adjustments.
I would buy the paper gasket needed between the auto and differential section, the paper gasket used between the differential carrier and the differential case, new output shaft seal for each side since you will need to pull the axle stubs out, new governor seal, new torque converter seal and two new pinion shaft seals and a cork gasket for the transmission pan with a new filter.
Once you have the transmission on the bench you can probably do this in 3-4 hours....and when its laying in front of you you can adjust your bands in about five minutes. The adjustments are external.
Here is a great writeup. It is a complete rebuild but the OP has notes on virtually everything you need and links for gasket/seal sets.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066
Rockauto has a complete (I hope its complete) seal kit for type 3 automatic made by Pioneer # 750080. Its about $80 and has more seals than you will be using but should have every seal you require.
They also have output shaft seals and torque converter seals listed separately if they are not part of the kit (they should be) and...they have one left in stock of Beck Arnley filter and pan gasket set for $8.27....its a manufacturer closeout sale. Only one left and no more coming. Buy that NOW. Its a steal!
Ray |
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Flat4Tom
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Kingsport TN
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Pulling t3 engine with T4 Automatic transmission Question |
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Thank you Ray for all of this valuable information. Does not sound too complicated. With your instructions and the manual I'll go for it.
Regards,
Tom
_________________
'69 Fastback - automatic - 'Flamer'
| MEANIRISHMOFO wrote: |
| The whole Patina thing has gone way too far. A beat up piece of shit does not have patina. It's a beat up piece of shit. That car is a good base for a restoration, Not a coat of wax. |
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Pulling t3 engine with T4 Automatic transmission Question |
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Multi69s has rebuilt his own 003's and covers everything he encounters repairing them.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2023 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Pulling t3 engine with T4 Automatic transmission Question |
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| An update on this thread would be nice. |
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