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1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo
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sb001
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

dpin78 wrote:
I can try it.
But it was driving perfect for a few months getting vacuum from that manifold port there. The shifts were super smooth. Do you think this could be part of the issue Iím having with the car needing a lot more rpmís to move? With the tachometer stall test we did and the atf pressure test we did wouldnít those narrow it down to an issue with either the TC or the clutch disc? Tks!


Yes i was just pointing out that that vacuum line was not really correct, but if there were no problems you can leave it as is. Yes the stall speed test seems to indicate an issue with the torque converter or clutch, but it seems like you have decent ATF pressure. So I guess there may be an issue with the clutch. It seems weird that it would just SUDDENLY fail though.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

I can try it.
But it was driving perfect for a few months getting vacuum from that manifold port there. The shifts were super smooth. Do you think this could be part of the issue Iím having with the car needing a lot more rpmís to move? With the tachometer stall test we did and the atf pressure test we did wouldnít those narrow it down to an issue with either the TC or the clutch disc? Tks!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

That port you have the reduction valve vacuum line attached to is manifold vacuum, I guess if it works it works but it will be unstable as you are accelerating due to the car's throttle plate opening at various degrees, and won't give as good a signal when you are going to shift. The reason VW used ported vacuum (as I understand it) is that it is above the throttle plate, and much more stable at idle, which is basically what is happening when you take your foot off the gas to shift-- you get up to speed to where you want to shift, take your foot off the gas, engine briefly drops to idle speed and throttle plate in the carb closes, so when you shift the supplied vacuum signal is very stable and can pull the servo rod much better.
EDIT: I'm editing the part of this post where I said try branching off the vacuum line to the control valve with a tee-fitting. That may work OK on a 30 PICT but on your 34 PICT-3 it will most likely cause very harsh shifts.
Instead, if you can, try drilling out that upper right side rear facing port on your carburetor through to the upper venturi area, and then buy a small brass tube from the local hardware store and loctite it in there. Then run the vacuum line from there over to the control valve.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Hi SB!

Thanks for the reply.

- the small vacuum line from the control valve is going to a small nipple coming out of the base underneath the carb. I tried to zoom in on the pic below and point it out with the yellow arrows.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


- the carb, distributor (correct: flame thrower) and coil all came from PO, which claims this was how he had it running. When I installed the engine back in, I found a local VW mechanic who came recommended by several VW enthusiasts on a local VW Facebook group here in Dallas Fort Worth area. Iíve timed engines before but only on older Chevy sbc 350s. Since it was my first time working on this particular engine I just paid him to time it for me. Not sure exactly what procedure he followed. The engine idles perfect and had good acceleration and no back fires, so I assumed he had timed it correctly.

- Iíll take some close up pics tomorrow of the area between the alternator and accelerator pump linkage. Donít think Iíve seen any thing rubbing in that section but will confirm tomorrow. Maybe thatís why he had a different carb on there to allow clearance for the alternator?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Something else I am noticing in that photo- you are running an alternator, the 68 originally would have come equipped with a smaller bodied generator. Are you sure your carburetor's accelerator pump linkage is clearing the alternator body? That would cause all sorts of acceleration issues.

A good read here:

ashman40 wrote:


The larger diameter area of the alternator body needs part of the stand to be cut back so it fits. The smaller diameter area is the same as the generator so the straight body of the generator will fit onto the alternator stand:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If your carb is from a '74 Beetle or is aftermarket it may already be set up for alternator use. The linkage for the accelerator pump was changed when VW switched to alternators. The carb spacer is designed to lift the carb up to avoid the generator carb's accelerator pump linkage from contacting the alternator body. This pic shows the alternator linkage (generator linkage is the dotted lines). And "no" they are not the same linkage just rotated 90-deg. If you have a carb with generator linkage you will need to source an alternator linkage (or a whole carb w/ the proper linkage).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Another option... grind the case of the alternator body to allow room for the generator linkage to move freely.

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1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
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sb001
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

As Tom stated those two switches right close to each other on the bell housing are to monitor the ATF fluid temperature, one is for Drive 1 and one is for Drive 2:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The wire leads from those go to the 3-prong "temperature selector" switch (covered by a rubber boot in your photo) up at the front passenger side of the transmission. Then there is a 3rd wire coming off that temperature selector switch that goes up to the ATF warning light in your dash. As Tom said, not the cause of your problems.

dpin78 wrote:
Thatís what Iím thinking too.
I wonder if the PO ordered a torque converter for a 1968 autostick and since the transmission is off a later model he got the wrong one. Not sure if the stall speeds or TC specs differ between years. I was able to bolt it right up but maybe something internally is different


The fact that you have TWO of those temperature switches at the bell housing and not just one proves you have an earlier (correct) autostick transmission. The later ones (I think around 72-up) went to a single temperature switch for Drive 1 since it was discovered that the ATF never overheated in Drive 2, and NO selector switch at the front of the transmission, the wire lead just went straight from that bell housing temperature switch straight to your ATF light in the dash. It wouldn't matter anyway as the torque converter was the same for all of them.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This switch with the two cut wires is your backup light switch! I'm guessing you don't have backup lights when you put the car in reverse at the moment. We can deal with that later.

I have a few concerns from what I am seeing in this photo:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Namely, you do not seem to have an autostick carburetor, which would have a second port on the rear side of it which supplies ported vacuum through a small vacuum line over to the small nipple on your control valve:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is what supplies the vacuum to regulate the speed at which the clutch activates-- turning the reduction screw on the control valve will do absolutely nothing if this line is not hooked up. Since you don't have the proper port on the carb for it, is it teed off the other carb-to-distributor vacuum line somewhere? This would work but not ideal.

Also, I am assuming that is a Flamethrower distributor? I've never seen one clocked that far around with the vacuum canister facing the left side of the engine bay, I'd like to verify how that was timed.
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1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Yeap I had to put it back in after I bought the car, so I have a good idea. I'll have to free up my small scissor lift as I've got another car on it right now. Just makes taking it out a lot easier one man operation. I'll report back in a few days.

If anyone can give me any clues as to what year transmission its on there right now that would be great. I don't think its the original 68' one.




Tom K. wrote:
Yes I don't see any other options. You can have it all out and in one day if you know what you need to do and have the parts.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Yes I don't see any other options. You can have it all out and in one day if you know what you need to do and have the parts.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Gotcha thanks!
At this point I think the next step is to drop the engine and check the TC and clutch disc.

Tom K. wrote:
That red electrical connector measures the temperature of your ATF and will trigger a light on your speedometer if your ATF gets too hot. Not a causes of your problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

That red electrical connector measures the temperature of your ATF and will trigger a light on your speedometer if your ATF gets too hot. Not a causes of your problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Thatís what Iím thinking too.
I wonder if the PO ordered a torque converter for a 1968 autostick and since the transmission is off a later model he got the wrong one. Not sure if the stall speeds or TC specs differ between years. I was able to bolt it right up but maybe something internally is different

[ bc quote="Marcdeb"]Later Autostick cars had a "Park" position, where as the first few years did not. If your transmission is not the original, maybe that sensor was for the later cars???[/quote]
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Later Autostick cars had a "Park" position, where as the first few years did not. If your transmission is not the original, maybe that sensor was for the later cars???
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Some pics of engine bay and from underneath the car (just in case someone catches something I have wrong):



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Also I found these two wires cut off an electrical connector. I hadn't seen them before since PO had tucked them in behind and I missed them. I don't think they're needed, since it was running good until last week.

I'm not too familiar with the transmission types and models for these years. I tried searching for a stamped number or code on it, but couldn't find anything (I'll keep looking its gotta be there). Could just be covered up with dirt. I wonder if this transmission off a newer year autostick, because I do remember seeing a wiring diagram for the autostick from 1968 and I don't recall seeing that electrical connector in the diagram... could be wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Excuse my ignorance. This is my first aircooled vw and I'm just learning as I go along. I need to read the manual to get up to date on how everything works.

But for now I wanted to ask what role do these two connectors play?
They go right behind where the ATF lines connect too and seem to have an electrical connection each. Is there an actuator in there that needs to open and close for the fluid to flow correctly?


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Last edited by dpin78 on Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

FYI:
In case someone has to do the Transmission line PSI test most kits will not come with the correct size adapters we need. I did have to go down to my local ACE hardware store and rig up a few couplings to make it work.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Update: Performed transmission line pressure test.
As you will see in the video the pressure at idle sat a little low at around 45psi; however, this was a cold start. Maybe once the engine is warmed up it'll be closer to the 52psi as per specs. When I rev the engine the PSI goes up thought.

I think after both the tachometer test and the atf pressure test we can narrow it down to an issue with either the TC or clutch (control valve was also ruled out with Tom's help)

Transmission line test results video:
https://youtube.com/shorts/oFNGfAGUy5o?feature=share

Link



sb001 wrote:
dpin78 wrote:
Hi SB,
New ATF was used when I installed the rebuilt converter. Less than 300 miles on it. Level is good was actually the first thing I checked forgot to mention Smile No leaks either.

I ordered a tachometer on Amazon. Should have it by tomorrow and wi report results within a day or two.

What tool/pressure tester did you use for the pressure test on the ATF hose coming from the oil pump? Would def like to run this test too!

Itís been a few months since I put the TC back on. Donít remember to good how I put them on, But what would be the wrong way of installing them? Weird thing is she was running fine until this past weekend.

Thanks for the advice as always! Much appreciated 🙏🏼


There is no real wrong way to install the TC bolts they are either in or not-- they can only be installed one way, through the bell housing window and through the tabs around the edge of the torque converter and they thread into the angled threaded holes around the edge of the flex plate. I was just wondering if you had perhaps forgotten them and the torque converter was running on friction against the flex plate alone, but I would think you'd have experienced issues immediately.

I have never actually performed that ATF fluid pressure test, that came from the same Bentley autostick section that the troubleshooting chart I posted above came from. It outlines the procedure for the torque converter stall speed test, then if the engine revs are higher than the stall speed range (2000-2300 RPM) it outlines the procedure for doing the ATF pressure test, I just copied and pasted that info here. So I suppose you would need a fluid pressure tester- something like this should work:

https://www.harborfreight.com/engine-and-transmission-oil-pressure-test-kit-64872.html

According to Bentley you can connect it inline at that banjo fitting on the hose coming up through the engine tin from the oil pump going to the torque converter. Also be sure to check the banjo fittings on the hoses at the bell housing, make sure they are tight and you aren't leaking ATF fluid there.
Good luck, eager to hear what you find out.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Hi SB,
I did the Tach test following the steps outlined below.
With left foot on brake + 2 gear selected + right foot on gas pedal my RPMs went up to 5k on first try and around 4k on the second try as shown in the video. Def way out of range for reduced "stall" speed parameters.

This is a cheap Chinese tachometer so readers are probably not 100% accurate, but enough to give us an idea of rpm ball park range.

I'm going to do the ATF pressure test next. Will post posting results soon.

Link to Youtube Video:
https://youtu.be/tF1Pn5rIBtk

Link



sb001 wrote:
Agree with Tom above. But just for kicks I did the same test, with more or less the same results (except my wires are reversed from yours on the control valve solenoid, but it wouldn't make a difference.)
I am fairly confident you are looking at a mechanical issue. My guess is the torque converter. How is your ATF fluid level? I don't suppose you see any obvious leaks?

You can try the stall speed test to check for a faulty torque converter but you'll need a tachometer:
1. Turn the car on
2. Apply the e-brake and hold the brake pedal down TIGHT with your left foot
3. Put the car into Drive 2
4. Holding the brake pedal TIGHT with your left foot, floor the accelerator with your right foot for a few seconds- just long enough to check the tach reading. When doing this test the engine should run at a reduced "stall" speed of around 2000-2300 RPMs instead of revving way up.
5. If the speed is below this, the TC is faulty. If it's above this, either the clutch has issues or the TC is not getting proper ATF pressure. You can do a pressure test on the ATF hose coming up from the oil pump going to the TC, should be around 52 PSI.

I can't think of much more that would cause this other than ATF fluid or something on the clutch face that would make it slip. When you installed the rebuilt converter you did remember to put the TC bolts back in correct? Very Happy
[youtube][/youtube]

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:37 am    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Correct. Same problem with all gears.

Tom K. wrote:
Ok. In my mind your control valve is off the hook - both electrically and mechanically. And you should feel very little vacuum. So it looks ok.

Clutch disks wear so very slowly on these cars. I wouldn't expect that to be the problem. You can page through the link below in my signature for the 71 where I show pictures of how I examined my clutch. I'm still using that same clutch disk.

The torque convertor story is intriguing. Maybe the last mechanic *thought* this same problem was a bad torque convertor? But why was it driving well for a little while? Hmm.

Does the ane problem occur in all four gears?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:08 am    Post subject: Re: 1968 Beetle Autostick - slow moving clutch servo Reply with quote

Ok. In my mind your control valve is off the hook - both electrically and mechanically. And you should feel very little vacuum. So it looks ok.

Clutch disks wear so very slowly on these cars. I wouldn't expect that to be the problem. You can page through the link below in my signature for the 71 where I show pictures of how I examined my clutch. I'm still using that same clutch disk.

The torque convertor story is intriguing. Maybe the last mechanic *thought* this same problem was a bad torque convertor? But why was it driving well for a little while? Hmm.

Does the ane problem occur in all four gears?
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