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wonkipop
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Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:22 pm Post subject: 412 - L JET = the first |
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I don't post here, am a 914 owner in australia.
We never got 411s/412s in australia but there were a few around that snuck in or were assessment vehicles that i can remember when i was a lot younger that i spotted back in the late 70s and 80s.
But to cut to the chase, since i thought you blokes with your 411s/412s might be interested.
i own a 74 914 1.8 L jet and have owned it for 35 years.
some of us over in 914 world have completed research into the L jets and their introduction. as you all know these VW engined cars with the 1.8s were the first application of L jet. period. year zero. 001 at the end of the part # on the AFM units.
you will be pleased to know that beyond the shadow of a doubt the VW 412 is the first car to run with L Jet. It beat the 914 by 3 months.
the 412 started production in August 1973. The 914 1.8 did not commence production until late Oct/early Nov 1973.
its all here. if you are interested.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=357407&st=0
cheers.
keep on rolling.
(i lived for a time in the states in the late 80s and early 90s and remember seeing quite a few 411s and 412s on the road, a bit worse for wear, but still rolling. always had a soft spot for the variants. great looking little cars. esp the later 412s. - have owned air cooled VWs all my life, had a type 3 variant for many many years. these days its just the 914). |
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Pepperbilly
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Joined: April 08, 2017
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Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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Well look at that! A feather in the cap for the ‘74 412. Back in the day I took care of a close friends ‘74 914 1.8 here in Seattle. Yep, it was L jet injection for the 1.8. The 2.0 was D jet.
Bill |
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whobba
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wonkipop
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Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| whobba wrote: |
| Yes, my '74 412 is the L Jet, which I love because my '76 and '77 Beetles are also L-Jet and the parts are the same, except the harness. |
the sequence is
Aug 73 412 1.8
Nov 73 914 1.8
Jan 74 californian market 1.8 Bus.
March 74 Opel Manta GT.
the VWs were US market only.
the Opel was the first european market car with L jet.
the sequence was likely staged to match commencement of production of components by Bosch for the new system.
our research also uncovered the reasoning behind the 3 digit paint stamps which are on all VW engines somewhere on the cooling tin.
the stamps identify the particular model the engine is for.
73 and 74 914 engines use a three digit stamp beginning with 6.
we have five of the numbers connected with the 1.8.
604, 605, 606, 607 are the US market numbers.
they identify whether the engine was 49 states or californian emissions.
and further identify in each market whether the engine was equipped with an oil temp sensor and wiring for a temp gauge - or not.
608 is the number for one of the variants of the 1.8 twin carb euro market engine. 609 is presumed to exist but has not been found as an example.
all the 74 412 examples we uncovered appear to have engine stamps beginning with 5.
5 is the designation for the 412. followed by two other numbers depending on how many versions of the 1.8 L jet were in 412s. probably two. 49 states and california.
end of trivia.
------
the injectors for the 74 914 1.8 are absolutely identical to the 76/77 beetle.
hoses and all. the 412 injectors have different hoses but in other respects identical.
the AFM is identical on the 74 412 and 914. it ends with 001. the first.
its the only bosch part i have ever sighted with the numero uno part number.
i am unsure about the ECU on the 914 v the 412. likely different. but i could check that with parts books.
the 412 engine is set up a little differently to the 914 version.
it appeared to use EGR (at least in california). the 914 did not in either 49 states or california. also the throttle appears to be of a very different nature to suit holding revs for the auto gearbox.
as i understand it was the only engine VW as able to get with an automatic through the californian emissions. the D jet would not pass muster. the 1.7 D jet continued to be sold in 49 states with a manual gearbox in the fast back 412 in 1974. but it could not be sold in california. there was no manual 412 or fastback 412 sold in california in MY 1974.
we got access to all the CARB documentation for those years which lists precisely which cars received approval and when and how they were equipped. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:04 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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Cool information! Good research! A couple of things to add:
| wonkipop wrote: |
| whobba wrote: |
| Yes, my '74 412 is the L Jet, which I love because my '76 and '77 Beetles are also L-Jet and the parts are the same, except the harness. |
the sequence is
Aug 73 412 1.8
Nov 73 914 1.8
Jan 74 californian market 1.8 Bus.
March 74 Opel Manta GT.
the VWs were US market only.
the Opel was the first european market car with L jet.
the sequence was likely staged to match commencement of production of components by Bosch for the new system.
our research also uncovered the reasoning behind the 3 digit paint stamps which are on all VW engines somewhere on the cooling tin.
the stamps identify the particular model the engine is for.
73 and 74 914 engines use a three digit stamp beginning with 6.
we have five of the numbers connected with the 1.8.
604, 605, 606, 607 are the US market numbers.
they identify whether the engine was 49 states or californian emissions.
and further identify in each market whether the engine was equipped with an oil temp sensor and wiring for a temp gauge - or not.
608 is the number for one of the variants of the 1.8 twin carb euro market engine. 609 is presumed to exist but has not been found as an example.
all the 74 412 examples we uncovered appear to have engine stamps beginning with 5.
5 is the designation for the 412. followed by two other numbers depending on how many versions of the 1.8 L jet were in 412s. probably two. 49 states and california.
end of trivia.
I would probably say...speculate.... that "5" is not for 412 but if we are speaking of 1974's and 1.8L specifically...its probably for "1974".
The 412 started after August of 1972 so we had 1973 412's. They were D-jet and there was some specific and small crossover into the 1974/1.8L model era. There were a very few cars with D-jet and 1.7L made into the first few months of the 1974 model year.
Whether they were just using yup parts I do not know. Also, at least in the US/North America, all two door saloons with 4 speed manual transmission were D-jet. I cannot say for sure that all were 1.7L.
------
the injectors for the 74 914 1.8 are absolutely identical to the 76/77 beetle.
hoses and all. the 412 injectors have different hoses but in other respects identical.
the AFM is identical on the 74 412 and 914. it ends with 001. the first.
its the only bosch part i have ever sighted with the numero uno part number.
i am unsure about the ECU on the 914 v the 412. likely different. but i could check that with parts books.
the 412 engine is set up a little differently to the 914 version.
it appeared to use EGR (at least in california). the 914 did not in either 49 states or california. also the throttle appears to be of a very different nature to suit holding revs for the auto gearbox.
as i understand it was the only engine VW as able to get with an automatic through the californian emissions. the D jet would not pass muster. the 1.7 D jet continued to be sold in 49 states with a manual gearbox in the fast back 412 in 1974. but it could not be sold in california. there was no manual 412 or fastback 412 sold in california in MY 1974.
The D-jet 1.7L most certainly was produced for California emissions. The baseline spec is M27 which by the beginning of the 1973 model year was for models 421 (four door saloon) and 461 (two door wagon/variant)...all were only avaiable here with automatic transmission.
The M27 spec also contains all of the parts in M157 spec which was basic emissions for the 49 states and included carbon cannister, PCV valve and a few other bits and pieces.
D-jet could pass emissions muster just fine.....when it was new  but the issue is that it could not stay that way. It was very hard to tune, adjust and keep in compliance. It had low compression pistons, poor ignition curves etc. Emissions rules were changing every single year. The problem with the 49 states 1.7L with D-jet in 411, 412 and 914....was that it produced too much NOX because of its high compression. Thats why it had lowered compression.
De-tuning the 1.7L ...pretty much to VW bus spec in compression and timing curve...made it run hot and with poor reliability. The issue with the manual transmission in California is that even with the 1.8L...is that if I rev it up through the shift points or run at high rpm in overun.....the advance curve required to operate this caused NOX to spike anyway...so no manual trans by any means for California.
The 411/412 was not offered as standard equipment in the US primarily due to marketing. These cars were marketed as semi-luxury models. The US market was not really interested in manual transmission in late 1971 when these cars hit the US market.
The manual transmission issue was not JUST a California issue. There were no manual transmission cars sold INSIDE the US market period in any state.
It was gray market/Tourist vehicle only. It was not offered as a "pick it up at the dealer" model. All of them that we have were special order, collected overseas or brought in through Canada. Mine included.
Mine was a tourist vehicle bought by a Royal Canadian Airforce officer in Frankfurt, eventually sold to an American school teacher who drove it around Germany, France and shipped it out of Olso Norway. That being said it was produced with US spec components for eventual shipment to US.
The throttle body...casting.... is actually the same on all of the injected 1.8's. The differences that were made to use and automatic transmission....were already on the 1.7L TB's...just in a different form.
On the 1.7L a vacuum variable throttle "kicker" or Dashpot was used to prevent the throttle from closing all the way during the last few feet of coming to a stop at a traffic light....to allow the torque converter to decouple and not cause a dip in idle down below normal...which causes a very fast super lean to very rich "burble" and possible stall. Technically it was a vacuum breaker. D-jet see's loss of vacuum by any means as throttle movement and the MPS enriches.
It was a bolt on part so the same TB was used on D-jet with manual transmission.
The 1.8L version of that...which operates 100% opposite....is the spring assembly around the throttle shaft which is a positive closing spring. When you are coming to a stop...since L-jet sees any cracked open throttle as a vacuum leak creating a lean spot....you could get a slight rev coming up to a stop causing the torque converter not to decouple causing a stall.
Both parts did the same thing but for polar opposite reasons because both injection systems meter in polar opposite manner. L-jet has a vacuum leak or open throttle and it runs lean. D-jet sees a vacuum leak or open throttle and it runs rich.
On the L-jet this positive throttle closure was also necessary for the rising rate fuel pressure regulator accuracy (I use that term loosely).
we got access to all the CARB documentation for those years which lists precisely which cars received approval and when and how they were equipped. |
Nice work!
Ray |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 11:32 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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Yes, nice research for sure! Puts things in order and gives reasoning for what and why.
You mentioned the tin stamps. I photographed all my stamps before disassembly. So… there is a story here. My automatic ‘73 wagon with D Jet.
Left side
Right side
Alternator tin
Bill |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Cool information! Good research! A couple of things to add:
| wonkipop wrote: |
| whobba wrote: |
| Yes, my '74 412 is the L Jet, which I love because my '76 and '77 Beetles are also L-Jet and the parts are the same, except the harness. |
the sequence is
Aug 73 412 1.8
Nov 73 914 1.8
Jan 74 californian market 1.8 Bus.
March 74 Opel Manta GT.
the VWs were US market only.
the Opel was the first european market car with L jet.
the sequence was likely staged to match commencement of production of components by Bosch for the new system.
our research also uncovered the reasoning behind the 3 digit paint stamps which are on all VW engines somewhere on the cooling tin.
the stamps identify the particular model the engine is for.
73 and 74 914 engines use a three digit stamp beginning with 6.
we have five of the numbers connected with the 1.8.
604, 605, 606, 607 are the US market numbers.
they identify whether the engine was 49 states or californian emissions.
and further identify in each market whether the engine was equipped with an oil temp sensor and wiring for a temp gauge - or not.
608 is the number for one of the variants of the 1.8 twin carb euro market engine. 609 is presumed to exist but has not been found as an example.
all the 74 412 examples we uncovered appear to have engine stamps beginning with 5.
5 is the designation for the 412. followed by two other numbers depending on how many versions of the 1.8 L jet were in 412s. probably two. 49 states and california.
end of trivia.
I would probably say...speculate.... that "5" is not for 412 but if we are speaking of 1974's and 1.8L specifically...its probably for "1974".
The 412 started after August of 1972 so we had 1973 412's. They were D-jet and there was some specific and small crossover into the 1974/1.8L model era. There were a very few cars with D-jet and 1.7L made into the first few months of the 1974 model year.
Whether they were just using yup parts I do not know. Also, at least in the US/North America, all two door saloons with 4 speed manual transmission were D-jet. I cannot say for sure that all were 1.7L.
------
the injectors for the 74 914 1.8 are absolutely identical to the 76/77 beetle.
hoses and all. the 412 injectors have different hoses but in other respects identical.
the AFM is identical on the 74 412 and 914. it ends with 001. the first.
its the only bosch part i have ever sighted with the numero uno part number.
i am unsure about the ECU on the 914 v the 412. likely different. but i could check that with parts books.
the 412 engine is set up a little differently to the 914 version.
it appeared to use EGR (at least in california). the 914 did not in either 49 states or california. also the throttle appears to be of a very different nature to suit holding revs for the auto gearbox.
as i understand it was the only engine VW as able to get with an automatic through the californian emissions. the D jet would not pass muster. the 1.7 D jet continued to be sold in 49 states with a manual gearbox in the fast back 412 in 1974. but it could not be sold in california. there was no manual 412 or fastback 412 sold in california in MY 1974.
The D-jet 1.7L most certainly was produced for California emissions. The baseline spec is M27 which by the beginning of the 1973 model year was for models 421 (four door saloon) and 461 (two door wagon/variant)...all were only avaiable here with automatic transmission.
The M27 spec also contains all of the parts in M157 spec which was basic emissions for the 49 states and included carbon cannister, PCV valve and a few other bits and pieces.
D-jet could pass emissions muster just fine.....when it was new but the issue is that it could not stay that way. It was very hard to tune, adjust and keep in compliance. It had low compression pistons, poor ignition curves etc. Emissions rules were changing every single year. The problem with the 49 states 1.7L with D-jet in 411, 412 and 914....was that it produced too much NOX because of its high compression. Thats why it had lowered compression.
De-tuning the 1.7L ...pretty much to VW bus spec in compression and timing curve...made it run hot and with poor reliability. The issue with the manual transmission in California is that even with the 1.8L...is that if I rev it up through the shift points or run at high rpm in overun.....the advance curve required to operate this caused NOX to spike anyway...so no manual trans by any means for California.
The 411/412 was not offered as standard equipment in the US primarily due to marketing. These cars were marketed as semi-luxury models. The US market was not really interested in manual transmission in late 1971 when these cars hit the US market.
The manual transmission issue was not JUST a California issue. There were no manual transmission cars sold INSIDE the US market period in any state.
It was gray market/Tourist vehicle only. It was not offered as a "pick it up at the dealer" model. All of them that we have were special order, collected overseas or brought in through Canada. Mine included.
Mine was a tourist vehicle bought by a Royal Canadian Airforce officer in Frankfurt, eventually sold to an American school teacher who drove it around Germany, France and shipped it out of Olso Norway. That being said it was produced with US spec components for eventual shipment to US.
The throttle body...casting.... is actually the same on all of the injected 1.8's. The differences that were made to use and automatic transmission....were already on the 1.7L TB's...just in a different form.
On the 1.7L a vacuum variable throttle "kicker" or Dashpot was used to prevent the throttle from closing all the way during the last few feet of coming to a stop at a traffic light....to allow the torque converter to decouple and not cause a dip in idle down below normal...which causes a very fast super lean to very rich "burble" and possible stall. Technically it was a vacuum breaker. D-jet see's loss of vacuum by any means as throttle movement and the MPS enriches.
It was a bolt on part so the same TB was used on D-jet with manual transmission.
The 1.8L version of that...which operates 100% opposite....is the spring assembly around the throttle shaft which is a positive closing spring. When you are coming to a stop...since L-jet sees any cracked open throttle as a vacuum leak creating a lean spot....you could get a slight rev coming up to a stop causing the torque converter not to decouple causing a stall.
Both parts did the same thing but for polar opposite reasons because both injection systems meter in polar opposite manner. L-jet has a vacuum leak or open throttle and it runs lean. D-jet sees a vacuum leak or open throttle and it runs rich.
On the L-jet this positive throttle closure was also necessary for the rising rate fuel pressure regulator accuracy (I use that term loosely).
we got access to all the CARB documentation for those years which lists precisely which cars received approval and when and how they were equipped. |
Nice work!
Ray |
interesting comments and information mr. g.
will add that to our file.
your remarks on early 74s being D Jets would fit the picture.
it would appear that VW and Bosch were struggling to bring L jet on in time.
the sequencing on the engine tin 3 digit codes would even be suggestive of this.
the 74 1.8 914s have lower numbers in the 3 digit numbers beginning with 6 than the 1.7s of 73 which also have this number 6XX system. there is the possibility that the engine program initially was intended to be introduced earlier and the D jets were retained as a back up or just in case scenario? the problems were there particularly for the 914s as the 73 1.7 unleaded version in california spec was really a very weak engine for its application in a 914. 73 hp. the lowest of all outputs. 
i doubt this was a desirable outcome for either porsche or VW and that they would have preferred the higher power 1.8 unleaded version earlier?
even though its a pretty academic increase in power. 3 hp.
but it is very torquey. probably helped.
----
as a comment the 411/412 is a very rare car in australia.
(6 assessment cars came in during the late 1960s, 2 of each type, that was it - since then a few more trickled in from south africa and a few variants/wagons via the german embassy - all in all a handful, probably 20 at most, can't say how many survive, i think one of the original coupes survives and is occassionally seen at VW events)
as is D jet rare.
in terms of VWs it was restricted to the top shelf VW type 3 fastback.
referred to here as a TLE.
that was it.
early 70s SAABs and Lancias also used the system.
possibly some mercedes though i have never run across one of the D jet mercs if they ever existed down here.
by the time the japanese came in with fuel injection they were using the denso licensed copy of L jet.
----
re D jet approval for california i refer only to the 74 model year.
the last year of 412 production.
the D jet was not approved by CARB.
we have the documentation.
there is an interesting slippage there though with the EPA and potentially with CARB and that was that a previous model year could be manufactured (not just sold) right up until the end of the calendar year but no further. so a 73 412 could theoretically be manufacture right to the end of 1973 despite the usual convention operated by manufactures of beginng model year production in august of the year before.
we also have EPA documents on file with our research that records the first emission scandal. the guilty party was VW. the date was 1973. VW settled with the EPA over the matter rather than contest it. the issue was switches that deactivated the emissions systems below 68F. the switches were part of the D jet system and in particular part of the system as it was applied to engines paired with auto gearboxes.
VW were under intense scrutiny by the EPA over the "cheat devices" as they were labelled by the EPA even back then, when they were having the L jet system approved and certified. this may have been part of the reason for the ultimate demise of D jet it would seem. it is certainly tied into it.
---
thanks for the explanation on the auto car throttle set up.
i have often wondered what the weird gizmo is connected to the throttle bodies on type 4s.
down here we never got full auto air cooled VWs.
a few type 3 and beetles had the other version, the semi auto.
which you shifted yourself. more akin to the porsche or NSU style sportmatic. |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
Yes, nice research for sure! Puts things in order and gives reasoning for what and why.
You mentioned the tin stamps. I photographed all my stamps before disassembly. So… there is a story here. My automatic ‘73 wagon with D Jet.
Left side
Right side
Alternator tin
Bill |
yep that is the story with those numbers.
the 3 digit number stamp kicks in with the 73 model year across the entire VW range.
prior to that they use a different system.
for 914s the number is 022.6
i believe the 411s would have had stamp that is a variation on that.
022 meant the type 4 engine. 6 meant for the 914.
what it meant was the roadster model of the type 4.
so 411s probably had a different last number, depending on what it was, sedan, fastback or wagon. as each engine was a little different in terms of minor details.
as well as the 022.6 the 914s also carried M stamps - further code which signified if they were the USA/Canada package for north american emissions.
the 914s used the three digits beginning with 6 for three engine groups for 73 and 74.
60X series for the 74 1.8s.
61X series for the 73 1.7s
62X series for the 73/74 2.0s.
in 1975 the 914 engines moved to using 9 as the first number.
what happened was VW shuffled all the first numbers in 75.
a number of models came to an end in the 73 74 time period time frame.
type 3s ceased production. type 4s ceased production.
the water cooled engines came in.
early examples of water cooled VW golfs use the same three number paint stamp on their engines. its either on the engine block or the valve cover.
each different model was assigned a first number.
as far as i know the beetle always retained 1 as the first number of the three digit code.
buses switched first numbers sometime during that post 74 shakeup and got a new first number.
we don't have all the numbers for all the VW models.
just did a general sweep through those with data we could find from internet sales documentation etc. but we have exhaustive files on the 914 which went a long way to settling the question of what the numbers were intended for.
the numbers were painted on at the completion of the engine assembly.
sometimes additional numbers were also included.
we have discovered that engines early in the production run also received the code EA followed by 3 numbers. these correspond to the development order assigned to those particular engine programs. for instance EA370 corresponds to the development order for the 1,8 L jet engine for 1974. its on some engines.
additionally there are other stamps some engine have such as I.O.
these were engines that probably had some fault or required further work to pass muster and received the I O stamp after having a shorcoming attended to.
the time and place of the application of the stamp has been established in historic photos taken at the hanover engine plant. the numbers go on right at the end of engine assembly and testing.
---
we did not have time to go further into it in detail than the 914 engine range.
but the general principle would apply to the 411/412s.
if you collected enough examples you would see the numbers repeating and you would be able to apply them to specific types. ie a californian spec engine would have a different number than the 49 state version. both would being with 5 but the next two numbers would be different.
----
part of the confirmation on the theory as to the ordering of the numbers came with the last one we obtained for the 1974 914 1.8 series.
using the theory as to what the numbers applied to - off data collected from verifiable original cars we predicted that the number on the engine in the 1974 1.8 914 held in the porsche museum would be 608.
i wrote to the museum. they kindly inspected the car, took a photo and sent it back. the number was 608.
a 609 would be out there. it would be a 1974 1,8 fitted with the optional console and gauges. this required the engine be fitted with a special sump lid with a temp gauge and special wiring to plug into the main wiring loom of the 914. i doubt we will ever find one that has survived. restricted to sale in only europe and there are not many left out there you could come across.
but that will be the number on it.
there is also one other 1975 1.8 number that is predicted to exist and i am sure we will come across that in time.
i imagine there is probably something like half a dozen or so of these numbers that are on 73 74 type 4s at minimum. each relates to a specific engine type.
ie a 412 1.8 in a california spec variant. etc. |
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Pepperbilly
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Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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So the I.O. stamp on my left side is probably a german abbreviation. I wonder for what words? The I. would lead me to believe “Inspection”. The O. maybe “Ordnung”. Maybe “In Ordnung” ( passes inspection )? Guessing here…
Bill |
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Lars S
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Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
So the I.O. stamp on my left side is probably a german abbreviation. I wonder for what words? The I. would lead me to believe “Inspection”. The O. maybe “Ordnung”. Maybe “In Ordnung” ( passes inspection )? Guessing here…
Bill |
I guess you are quite right here Bill, it should mean "In Ordnung" (or "OK" in english).
Lars S
PS
For a long time I (who can speak Gernman pretty well) thought the "IO" referred to "I" for Inlet valves and "O" for Outlet valves checked 
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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Pepperbilly
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Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Lars S wrote: |
| Pepperbilly wrote: |
So the I.O. stamp on my left side is probably a german abbreviation. I wonder for what words? The I. would lead me to believe “Inspection”. The O. maybe “Ordnung”. Maybe “In Ordnung” ( passes inspection )? Guessing here…
Bill |
I guess you are quite right here Bill, it should mean "In Ordnung" (or "OK" in english).
Lars S
PS
For a long time I (who can speak Gernman pretty well) thought the "IO" referred to "I" for Inlet valves and "O" for Outlet valves checked |
Ja, alles “ln Ordnung”
I grew up with german parents and visited my relatives in Germany many summer school vacations. Even though I grew up in Seattle I always had a good grasp on the german language. Maybe I’m onto something here.. hoffentlich  .
Bill |
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Lars S
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 1:41 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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Just another note on the tin stamps... in the factory production spec below (which I found under the backseat of my 412 a long time ago) one can on line 6.6 (Motor) read the number "545" which is the same as stamped on the engine tin.
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Lars S wrote: |
Just another note on the tin stamps... in the factory production spec below (which I found under the backseat of my 412 a long time ago) one can on line 6.6 (Motor) read the number "545" which is the same as stamped on the engine tin.
/Lars S
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thanks for posting that build sheet @Lars S
brilliant. got a lot of information in there.
i've "stolen" that and tucked it into my files.
you never find those with 914s.
karmann must have used them but not seem to leave them tucked in the cars at completion.
the Kenn Nr. at the top is nice.
slightly inaccurately referred to by the 14 crew as the karmann number because its on an engraved karmann tag in the door pillar in 914s.
yep - if there were a few other build sheets to be found for 411s that engine number would match the tin stamp if the engine was original.
i've got a euro spec 411/412 d jet fuel injected engine on file with the stamp number 583 and a number of L jet 412 engines with the same tin stamp 567 that matches pepperbilly's posted above. |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| wonkipop wrote: |
...
you never find those with 914s.
karmann must have used them but not seem to leave them tucked in the cars at completion.
the Kenn Nr. at the top is nice.
slightly inaccurately referred to by the 14 crew as the karmann number because its on an engraved karmann tag in the door pillar in 914s.
yep - if there were a few other build sheets to be found for 411s that engine number would match the tin stamp if the engine was original.
...
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Yes to see more build sheets would be very intresting! Only seen a Type1 sheet before.
The sheet in my 412 was tucked up under the back seat, properly inserted between the springs...
the back seat should be one of the last things that should be fitted during the build but dont think it was
a standard procedure to leave the sheet there, if so we should have seen more of them i believe.
The sheet seems to been taped to the outside of the body, should sit there until the final inspection of the completed car i assume.
/Lars S
P,S,
No wonkipop, you wont find one in a 914 since it has no back seat to look under
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Lars S wrote: |
| wonkipop wrote: |
...
you never find those with 914s.
karmann must have used them but not seem to leave them tucked in the cars at completion.
the Kenn Nr. at the top is nice.
slightly inaccurately referred to by the 14 crew as the karmann number because its on an engraved karmann tag in the door pillar in 914s.
yep - if there were a few other build sheets to be found for 411s that engine number would match the tin stamp if the engine was original.
...
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Yes to see more build sheets would be very intresting! Only seen a Type1 sheet before.
The sheet in my 412 was tucked up under the back seat, properly inserted between the springs...
the back seat should be one of the last things that should be fitted during the build but dont think it was
a standard procedure to leave the sheet there, if so we should have seen more of them i believe.
The sheet seems to been taped to the outside of the body, should sit there until the final inspection of the completed car i assume.
/Lars S
P,S,
No wonkipop, you wont find one in a 914 since it has no back seat to look under |
I really like that photo of all those Supers. Clearly shows the build sheets taped to the doors. Perhaps the build sheets were never meant to be hidden in the car when completed. Lars S, looks like you were very lucky to have found a sheet in your car! It would be cool to know if anyone else has found sheets in theirs.
Bill |
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Pepperbilly
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Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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Hey Lars S,
I guess I really don't know your 412 too well... Looking at the build sheet and your engine stamps, it looks like you have an "LE" or injected engine with a manual transmission if it still is that way today? Can you fill me in about what you have? I am trying to make sense of all the numbers and stamps.
Bill |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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@ Lars S - 412s had same protocol for build sheet. taped to door normally.
photos i have seen of karmann production line seems like they might have been taped to the windscreen.
yes---there is no where to hide a build sheet on a 914. |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:17 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
Hey Lars S,
I guess I really don't know your 412 too well... Looking at the build sheet and your engine stamps, it looks like you have an "LE" or injected engine with a manual transmission if it still is that way today? Can you fill me in about what you have? I am trying to make sense of all the numbers and stamps.
Bill |
I take it all back! There is a full description of your 412 in Marc Cranswick’s book. In the back of my mind I knew more about yours than I first thought
Bill |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:23 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
I take it all back! There is a full description of your 412 in Marc Cranswick’s book. In the back of my mind I knew more about yours than I first thought
Bill |
Yes most of it is in that book,just let me know if you need any more info Bill!
Another factory shot where the spec can be seen.
/Laars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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Hawker
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2012
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:56 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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Hello,
Both my 411LE four door saloon/sedan cars had their build sheets taped to the rear seat springs, and they remain there.
BR,
Rob |
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