Rob's Motor and Bus Build

[nogoodwithusernames]

One of these days we're gonna need a "Clatter Classics" sticky for all his fantastic build threads.
Thanks for another detailed build Steve, though seeing the photos of the rockers brought on some flashbacks... As you say, those things are HARD.

That looks like a complete T4 store cam kit? If so, I'm jealous. That is the gold standard for parts.
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71 Squareback, 1.7l T4 w/ crank trigger fuel and spark
(Conversion thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732508&highlight= or https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=151375&sid=f0542d44a322d290c29d6609fac7f215 )
74 914, 2.0L w/ D-Jet

-Derek

[skills@eurocarsplus]

[Clatter]

Rob!
Good to have you here my man.
Member since 2006 and nine posts..!


I’m good for at least 9000 words/day.


Let’s see some pics of the bus?

Or maybe I’ll post a couple of tin repair pics?
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Clatter]

Stoked to hear the kinds words, gentlemen.
Really glad to know these threads aren’t just farts in the wind.

Not everyone is interested in a type 4 deep dive.

On that note,
Jim just rejected the second batch of rods i brought him!

They looked fine to me.

He’s saying one looked like it was left outside in the rain or something.
I told him that i can shave down the perimeter and smooth it all out and lighten the others to match.
People used to do that all the time for performance reasons anyways.

But now he’s ripping down a core 914 2.0 he had just to get me some nice rod cores!
Aigh!

It’s really “coming to that” WRT core parts these days.
Seen piles of this stuff tossed into the trash in years past.
Guess results are predictable there, eh?

We’re going to have to just lower our standards here eventually.

But not just yet!
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[SGKent]

he might have been worried about porosity in the steel due to the water. Some damage to rods can be cosmetic, and that can be dealt with. Internal changes to the steel can be fatal. We used to pay a friend who was a radiologist to sneak them into the office and X-ray them when no one was looking.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

I've taken the following from Clatter's "Re-Restoration" thread, as it relates to engines, Type iv in particular:

When I take the US $3,434 per set of Len Hoffman heads, and convert to $CDN shekels, I get $4,700. That is, in my mind, just too much for many folks' budgets (mine included). Seems to me if, in my case with 40,000 easy miles on my squareport '79 heads, the answer is to:
- carefully check for cracks;
- utilize OEM seats;
- build a 6.75:1 CR engine;
- possibly add oil squirters;
- carefully CC the heads/check deck hts to ensure all cyls are equal CR;
- run midgrade fuel;
- easy on the static advance;
- flow-prove- / pattern-prove the injectors;
- be diligent with cooling air leaks;
- go easy on the hill climbing (shallow throttle, mid-range revs on, etc); and
- 60 mph max on windless days / level gradient.

Is that a reasonable approach, for moderate life expectancy?

Is Adrian Audirac (sp?) still out there with Headflow Masters?

Now I realize Rob's engine build is not a budget one, and I also realize that the heads are probably the most fraught part of a type iv... but $4700 Cdn 😐😐😐. This isn't a Porsche!

[tricyclerob]

"That's exactly why I've jumped ship to do swaps."

I pondered a swap for quite a while but eventually decided against it. Cost wise, comparing a swap to rebuilding an AC engine and transaxle, there's probably not much difference.

I've pondered if a "stock" bus with a motor such as Steve is building [much better than average] is worth more or less than a bus in the same condition but with a Subi swap.
My gut feeling is the end value is possibly close to the same, it just depends on who you're asking. [although I suspect that in the long, long term the unmodified bus will be worth more]

And that [the current value] depends on the expectations of the owner. A person that wants the ability to drive a 50 year old bus like it's a new car will obviously want the bus with the swap.

To others, that understand they are driving a 50 year old AC vehicle and the nuances of the operation of such, the expectations are much different.

I don't need [or want] to drive 70-75 on a freeway. I can do that with the other cars I own. My desire is to drive 50 [ok,"maybe" 55] on back and side roads. Sort of "taking the time to smell the roses" type driving.

Operation of an AC VW is an "experience" in motoring that is fast becoming a distant memory. Some want to keep that memory alive.

So, to each their own, depending on their expectations...

Just my thoughts, your milage may differ.

robj

[Clatter]

^^^Well Put^^^

There’s something about the clattery experience of an ACVW.

Part of the whole package.

It fits because it is..

Maybe if i was a real mechanic and just started the hobby,
A Subaru swap might be the path to take.

Er,
Wait,
Regular mechanic..
Maybe if i was a regular mechanic and just started the hobby,
A Subaru swap might be the path to take.

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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

I totally agree with you that if you drive a Type2 with a Type IV engine (or perhaps even worse, a Type I engine) in it like it was a regular modern-day vehicle, you're in for a world of hurt when the engine grenades. Like I said, 60 mph max, depending on the headwind, climbing hills in the lower gears (not revving to kingdom come, but with a nice decent rev on); and with moderate and not deep foot into the throttle.

I can't get over just how $$$ the heads are. Surely, AMC heads, a competent machinist replacing the seats with correct ones, correct interference fit, properly cut seats, decent valves... that ought to be the answer... short of the full Len Hoffman treatment??? Labour to replace cpts on the AMC's won't be free, but....???

[Clatter]

We’ll get into some head details here in a bit.

A balanced/blueprinted type 4 built to rev can run 65-70 all day long.
It can easily go way faster than that.
WAY faster…!

Biggest thing is,
It becomes a handful to drive fast for any length of time.
You have to give a lot to keep it between the lines and all.
You’ll steer yourself to death.

It’s just not relaxing,
Even though the bus will do it no problem.

I’m running wider rims, low profile tires, sway bars, lowered, etc etc.
It still takes a lot of attention to drive over 65-70 or so.

60-65 is the sweet spot.
Relaxing on long trips.

You’re really dependent upon the prevailing speed of traffic to be comfortable on the highway.
Depends upon how torn up the right lane is by semi trucks,
Stuff like that.

Once you build the motor,
It ain’t the motor,
Dig?
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

I dig. Cross wind stability is a PITA. My Type II Kombi, an empty tin can with windows, happily did 60 mph. I was limiting the top speed to 60 mph in deference to the limited cooling evident in the stock design, and also in deference to the pure trailing arm front suspension that offers no camber thrust to counter crosswinds. Safer, staying to 60 mph. At 60 mph I was doing about 3600 rpm. Not excessive for this less than 3" stroke engine, in my view... but pushing the wind, the faster you go, the deeper your throttle foot, and the hotter the heads get, as folks know. Incidentally, my engine is governed to 5400 rpm... and that ends up being about 84 mph. Sorry, the math doesn't totally work out. My tach, at the time, was not a high quality one. All I know is that at an indicated 135 kmh (84 mph) my governor tripped. I am running 185 reinforced tires... I think that ends up being about "88" profile tires, or maybe 85 series. I think I have a 0.89 fourth gear, and I think I have a 4.86 ring and pinion. I have to count ribs on my 091; it may be a 5- or a 6 rib unit. Perhaps the Vanagons, more so, were 0.82 fourth, and 4.57 R and P. That would make the Type IV REALLY work hard, pushing the Vanagon along. More frontal area, more weigh, taller gears! Ugh!

I am looking forward to discussion on the heads, and the hopefully cheaper alternatives out there... with statements of what doing less than the full meal deal on the heads, results-in... by way of less durability.

Cheers!

[skills@eurocarsplus]

[airschooled]

Nothing like other jockeys telling you whats wrong with your horse…

Thanks for sharing all this, Clatter.
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Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com

[tricyclerob]

"Rob!
Good to have you here my man.
Member since 2006 and nine posts..!"

Ha! I've been lurking. After 47 years as a PI, [15 for someone else and 32 with my own agency] It's something I developed a skill for...

robj

[Clatter]

[Clatter]

[Clatter]

So what to do about heads?

Len has admitted that you can get away with some new AMC heads for a while if you treat them right.

If they were used, from a motor that died, have they been treated right?
I don't know.

Look closely what Len is willing to tell us about what he builds today.
Generous of him to share.
https://lnengineering.com/type-4-store/cylinder-heads.html
I do not regret one tiny bit spending all that money so many years ago.
Buy once, and don't be stuck crying on the side of the road.
Wife pissed, dog panting, kids sniveling, vacation shot to hell, in a slowly-growing pool of oil...

Couple things to notice:
First, he uses AMC bus castings for his $3327 bus heads.
He mentions he used to start with 1.7 castings when he started development.
The pic shows a 2.0 bus chamber.
My old 7424 heads are AMC 2.0 castings.
https://lnengineering.com/camper-special-cs-oval-port-type-4-cylinder-heads.html
The different AMC heads have different valve sizes and chamber shapes for sure,
And may or may not have the different port shapes the factory heads do.
I haven't seen enough AMC heads to know for sure, but I'd bet they are similar, unlike factory ports.
Which heads Len uses for his camper heads I'm sure is based upon a lot of testing.

If I'm buying a set of stock AMC heads for a bus,
I'll go for the 1.8s due to them being the biggest valves available in the non-914 2.0 'standard' plug location casting.
Today on the AA site they're about $1400/pair.
https://aapistons.com/collections/stock-performanc...inder-head
You can't compare these to what Len sells.
Not only does he throw away all of the valves, guides, seats, springs, etc.
But you also get a valve job done on a Serdi machine!
Not only are they better seats, but also installed at better tolerances.
He'll upsize the valves as well - and also give the bowls an open-up and some hand-blending as well IIRC.
Plus coatings.. And all that precious careful work..
You really get something different, and it all comes at a cost.
He isn't getting rich doing these.
Got to be a real labor of love.

So, AA sells these AMC heads with bigger valves for about 2 grand.
https://aapistons.com/collections/stock-performanc...42x36-pair
What quality are these? I don't know.
Anybody want to try them?

These are interesting, but out of stock.
AA bus (1.8?) castings with 42x36 for $1379.90.
https://aapistons.com/collections/stock-performanc...eads-42x36
Jim does valve jobs on the AA type 1 heads and says the seats are hard material, which seems good.
People seem to like those.
Len admits to using AA 914 2.0 castings for his RS expensive heads.
Wonder what these AA are like?
Too bad they're out of stock, would be fun to take a look.
I vaguely remember issues with casting flash plugging up flow near the intake ports?


If you're totally on the cheap, and want to try to get away with what you can,
914 heads are the only option for used heads.
2.0 bus heads are always fried. 1.8 are usually cracked.
Only 1.7 heads -might- survive in a bus.
There's more on this in my Cheap Junk thread.

Used AMC heads are pretty much always a no-no,
But here's this 1.8 set I'm considering using on Rob's motor here:

Sometimes, just through dumb luck,
Maybe a bus with newer heads died from other causes?

1.8 heads are known to crack and these ain't cracked (yet).

Guide wear seems minimal,
stems aren't galled.
Jim's going to measure the stem OD to check for valve stretch.
We'll see if they clean up nicely with a fly-cut.
Hopefully we'll save the step.
Obviously, the valve job sucks.
That's either factory or some shop's work.
If, and only if, Jim feels the cutter work smoothly on the cylinder register and valve seats, and gives his blessing,
Will those go into Rob's motor.
But that's no guarantee..

Sometimes you get lucky,
And I'll try my luck,
But only with doing everything possible to verify what i can.

Buy some new heads and reduce your need for luck.
Or,
Better yet,
Go for a set of Len's heads and eliminate the need for luck entirely.
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

[orwell84]

[Cdn17Sport6MT]