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Brian_e
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

If you are building a street engine, and don't need to invest in a bunch of $$ in one time tools, do this...

Buy one of these brush style plateau hones.

https://goodson.com/collections/ultra-finish-hones/products/ultra-finish-soft-hones

I use one of these hones, and some honing oil. About 10 strokes each direction in a hand drill, and try to match the cross hatch angle. Then spray them out with carb cleaner good, and wipe them out with a towel.

Next they go into the heated ultrasonic at about 120deg. with simple green and water. After about 20min, I use a large nylon bore brush in the drill. Turn it both directions for a while each. Then another 20-30 min in the tank. I pull them out and dry them with air and immediately give them a shot of WD-40 and wipe it around. Then I always use this stuff applied according to their directions.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Quick-Seat-Piston-Ring-Assembly-Lubricant-p/quickseat.htm

The cylinders out of the box are always WAY more filthy than expected, and they must be spotless and correctly prepped to make sure your rings seat quickly.

I never use the stock AA rings, and always cast Grant rings. Install them dry, just like the Quick Seat instructions.

The break-in seating of the rings is also VERY important. I have always had super low leak down numbers, even after 30k hard miles in a bus. Never a need for huge breather boxes.

Brian
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

What Brian said. Cylinder prep is important. Just dont wear good clothes when you do it, or honing oil will fly everywhere, lol
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

So crappy clothes keep oil from slinging everywhere?
Who would’ve known.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
jimmyhoffa wrote:
For a brief moment I owned a Sunnen hone and dial bore gauge, AND had access to a Mahr profilometer, and I am 100% sold on the "flip the cylinder and hone a few strokes" thing that was first proposed to me by Modok.

Even using the same grit (280 at the time) honing from the bottom for a few final strokes reduced the Rp enough to sell me that the reverse rotation was knocking off some of the "boogers" or "burrs" if you can call them that. (I was also able to get all the cylinders round within .0002" just holding them on a wood block with a hole in it.)
That roundness isn't happening with a ball hone, but I betcha the reverse-rotation deburring thing will work!

FWIW the leakdown on that engine is good enough that I thought my tester was broken. Very Happy Had to test my Bobcat just to be sure! (20% leakdown on the Bobcat, tester must be working! Embarassed Laughing ) The only better I've tested is Kangaboy's carefully built turbo 2085 with Total Seal 2nd rings.


There is a big difference in honing to size and honing to adjust cross hatch/surface profile.

As others are getting at already.....if the cylinder is not already the right size and round, a brush research ball hone will not help.

Honing with a ball Hone to simply reset/adjust surface profile literally takes seconds. I will have to check my notes from the last time I did this...but running a 280 or 360 grit ball hone JUST for adjusting surface tooth/hatch takes only about 20 strokes at a pretty fast plunge rate. About 15-20 seconds max.

The 600 grit is for running in reverse strictly to create a plateau finish. It takes about the same amount of time.
The amount of material removed is maybe 0.0002" max or less if you are doing it right.

I used to do this on a drill press but found I was getting the hatch angle too narrow (too slow).
I do it with an corded hand drill now but I use a metronome app I downloaded to my phone to set a stroke beat. I practice first on a scrap cylinder. Hone for 15 seconds and the wipe and check the hatch angle. Adjust and repeat until I am set. Ray


I wanna give Rays post a bump to this page. Because its true, many say "but a dingleball/brush doesnt fix cylinder straightness, so in that way they "disqualify" the brush/dingleball hone as acceptable to use. But as Ray mentions, they are for 2 different things. One is to make the cylinder straight, or F*ck it up depending on several factors on how its used. As a bi-product, if you have the right grit stones and do it correctly, you can get a good surface finish too. Not many have the resources, cash, or knowledge to do it right when it comes to actually honing the cylinders. Even Pat Downs is skeptical of how to bolt them down getting it correct if its really fixing or hurting them when it comes to actual honing.

The Brush hone/dingleball is for surface finish only. Its easy. Any VW guy can spend $50 and give his cylinders a finish that will allow the rings to seat well and get more compression, and more even. Its reasonable, do-able. If your broke you can still afford it. If your lazy, you can still do it. Its worth for anyone to do as a standard practice on any engine. Combine that with a $50 set of Grant rings and you have a cylinder prep combo any garage builder can do. This is not racecar stuff, its standard engine building good practice.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

for the most part knock the tooth off. I use total seal rings is most everything Ive built in the past 35 years. IMHO they are more needed in a street engine. I use sunnen hone to hone my cylinders with fine stones. if you dont have that I would just use some 400-600 wet/dry with warm soap&water and used the palm of you have to "hone" the cylinders to knock the tooth off. be sure to properly clean them befor and after doing this. that rough hone on them holds all kinds of debris.as well as folded torn riped iron that will come off when the right scrap by it and thus eating your rings and filling your skirt/kilt with iron fragments. as well as sending part of it through the oil into your pump& bearings if you donut have a good filter and change it befor it's cloged up with cam lube&iron.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

Unrelated to any specific post above this, but for clarity: My post was meant to suggest that if the only tool you happen to have in your arsenal is a bottle brush ball hone, flipping the cylinder over and giving it a few "reverse rotation" strokes appears to create the most conducive finish for good ring seal, kindness to pistons and general low-risk break-in by knocking off the 'extreme highs' of the honed surface profile which tend to be more harmful than helpful. It's something that can be done with nothing more than sweat equity to improve your chances of success if you just have that one tool.

Of course the Sunnen rigid body hone is far superior in the ability to accurately size and true up cylinders, but they're expensive and I only have one thanks to the employee discount.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Lot of hard questions today.
We must have solved all the easy ones.

Fresh is better than stale, because oxide, dyne testing, surface energy.
Round is better than oval.
Correct skirt clearance is better than too tight or too loose.

You don't have to do everything perfect just to make it work, but rather do enough right to be good enough for what your doing


Wow!...I think besides me you are probably one of the few people who has ever mentioned "dynes/cm" in the forums! Very Happy ...Goniometry baby!

I have to measure dyne levels virtually every day in my work on the substrates we coat and print on.

Its interesting though...historically I have spent about a zillion hours working to get my clients to decouple their brains from thinking about the texture or tooth of a substrate to be coated....as something that will save them...and worry more about actual surface energy. Both surface area (from texture) and surface energy from boundary/band gap charges ...can BOTH aid adhesion but for totally different reasons.

You can have...for instance...a plastic or glass that has inherently low surface energy (like Gorilla glass or polypropylene plastic)....that might have a huge texture or tooth on it....and yet nothing will stick to it.
Very low surface energy.

Both of those are typically down around 20-25 dynes/cm or less. Most of our coatings require a minimum of about 35-36 dynes/cm and a best practice of about 42-45 dynes/cm.

The one area....as you mention....where dyne levels can be indicators of something other than adhesion or attraction to surface....is in the case of metals.

When we are plating certain parts like circuit boards...certain more circumspect operators will actually dyne test the sample fresh out of the rinse tank after plating. Record that.

Six months later.....when you start pulling boards out of stock...even if they LOOK pristine....a dyne level test with lower dynes will indicate how much the plating has oxidized....and if it needs to cleaned or "reactivated" by a caustic or acid rinse to remove oxide.

While oxidation of something like a cylinder bore does not actually have much large scale effect to the cross hatch texture....it can and will have an effect on how well lubricants can wet out to it.

Interesting!

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
for the most part knock the tooth off. I use total seal rings is most everything Ive built in the past 35 years. IMHO they are more needed in a street engine. I use sunnen hone to hone my cylinders with fine stones. if you dont have that I would just use some 400-600 wet/dry with warm soap&water and used the palm of you have to "hone" the cylinders to knock the tooth off. be sure to properly clean them befor and after doing this. that rough hone on them holds all kinds of debris.as well as folded torn riped iron that will come off when the right scrap by it and thus eating your rings and filling your skirt/kilt with iron fragments. as well as sending part of it through the oil into your pump& bearings if you donut have a good filter and change it befor it's cloged up with cam lube&iron.


If you can read and understand Tucker's post. For the home engine builder building a simple street engine all you need is a $1 sheet of wet/dry sandpaper and a few minutes of careful sanding. That will do the same thing as those $75 dingle ball things.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

Took my 2332 down to the longblock to upgrade heads to CB Wedges. The engine had less than 60sec of run time when I put my car on jackstands for a redo. AA Cylinders have very visible crosshatchs. Is that how they should look out the box or did my builder actually hone them b4 installation?

If not I will use the sandpaper method as described above. Once cleaned and ready for reassembly(after replacement of top rings with Grants) should I install them:

dry?
a little oil?
something else?

Thanks
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

DerrickfromNC1 wrote:
Took my 2332 down to the longblock to upgrade heads to CB Wedges. The engine had less than 60sec of run time when I put my car on jackstands for a redo. AA Cylinders have very visible crosshatchs. Is that how they should look out the box or did my builder actually hone them b4 installation?

If not I will use the sandpaper method as described above. Once cleaned and ready for reassembly(after replacement of top rings with Grants) should I install them:

dry?
a little oil?
something else?

Thanks


They come from AA with a deep rough cross-hatch. The point of the plateau hone is to knock off the high points and the swarf left over from the honing process. If this isn't done initially, the rings are gonna do it. This will shorten ring life, scuff piston skirts, and fill your oil and bearings with the swarf material. If the engine has been run, then most likely all the high spots have been knocked off.

Replace all the rings with Grants, not just the top rings. I always install the rings and pistons with Total Seal Quick Seat, and do it per their directions. A dime size spot of assembly lube rubbed onto the pistons skirts is all I use other then the Quick Seat.

Brian
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

Brian_e wrote:

Next they go into the heated ultrasonic at about 120deg. with simple green and water. After about 20min, I use a large nylon bore brush in the drill. Turn it both directions for a while each. Then another 20-30 min in the tank. I pull them out and dry them with air and immediately give them a shot of WD-40 and wipe it around. Then I always use this stuff applied according to their directions.

Brian


Is it okay to substitute my dedicated parts-washing dishwasher for the ultrasonic tank? I've got a really nice portable that I just couldn't let go for what they sell for used once we got a place with a built-in unit. I even had them plumb hot and cold water and a drain to the garage for it when we built the house. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
for the most part knock the tooth off. I use total seal rings is most everything Ive built in the past 35 years. IMHO they are more needed in a street engine. I use sunnen hone to hone my cylinders with fine stones. if you dont have that I would just use some 400-600 wet/dry with warm soap&water and used the palm of you have to "hone" the cylinders to knock the tooth off. be sure to properly clean them befor and after doing this. that rough hone on them holds all kinds of debris.as well as folded torn riped iron that will come off when the right scrap by it and thus eating your rings and filling your skirt/kilt with iron fragments. as well as sending part of it through the oil into your pump& bearings if you donut have a good filter and change it befor it's cloged up with cam lube&iron.


Can you clarify the part about the "palm" of you have to hone? What exactly do you mean?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

SBD wrote:

Is it okay to substitute my dedicated parts-washing dishwasher for the ultrasonic tank? I've got a really nice portable that I just couldn't let go for what they sell for used once we got a place with a built-in unit. I even had them plumb hot and cold water and a drain to the garage for it when we built the house. Smile


I am going to say no, not for this application.

A dishwasher does is use detergents to cut grease and surface tension modifiers to give the hot water a shot a rinsing away debris. Works really great for smooth surfaces.

But, that’s not the situation we have with cylinders…

An ultrasonic cleans differently. It uses cavitation at the surface of the part to, in a sense, blast partials free. They work really well for rough and porous surfaces.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

Soak in a STRONG water based degreaser, then "rinse" with pressure washer with HOT water, is what I would do. I'm a big believer in the pressure washer, water is still relatively cheap and available.

Ultrasonic sounds like a good idea!

I'd like to have a parts washer that is like blasting cabinet but with a pressure washer (i probably said that a few times before)

People in the past have recommend various household detergents for cleaning cylinders, but I think they have been reformulated a lot in 30 years, to be better at what they actually do, but probably worse at cleaning iron.
So for cleaning ferrous metals might look for a detergent for cleaning ferrous metals.
For lubing cylinders, I use cylinder lubricant. (Marvel oil) Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

Bug53 wrote:
mark tucker wrote:
for the most part knock the tooth off. I use total seal rings is most everything Ive built in the past 35 years. IMHO they are more needed in a street engine. I use sunnen hone to hone my cylinders with fine stones. if you dont have that I would just use some 400-600 wet/dry with warm soap&water and used the palm of you have to "hone" the cylinders to knock the tooth off. be sure to properly clean them befor and after doing this. that rough hone on them holds all kinds of debris.as well as folded torn riped iron that will come off when the right scrap by it and thus eating your rings and filling your skirt/kilt with iron fragments. as well as sending part of it through the oil into your pump& bearings if you donut have a good filter and change it befor it's cloged up with cam lube&iron.


Can you clarify the part about the "palm" of you have to hone? What exactly do you mean?


Tucker can not write any better or where you can understand it. All he posts are poor spelling and sentence structure. You just have to decipher his posts for yourself.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:


Tucker can not write any better or where you can understand it. All he posts are poor spelling and sentence structure. You just have to decipher his posts for yourself.


I sometimes copy and paste his posts into Word and force corrections. Makes them easier to comprehend. Still, way too much work so I often just do a 1-time read-thru to see if it makes sense then move on. Same w/Ray G's posts - all of the dots instead of correct English punctuation make them laborious to read.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

vamram wrote:
vwracerdave wrote:


Tucker can not write any better or where you can understand it. All he posts are poor spelling and sentence structure. You just have to decipher his posts for yourself.


I sometimes copy and paste his posts into Word and force corrections. Makes them easier to comprehend. Still, way too much work so I often just do a 1-time read-thru to see if it makes sense then move on. Same w/Ray G's posts - all of the dots instead of correct English punctuation make them laborious to read.


Just block his posts. Not worth reading. Rarely anything really usable, and certainly not worth the time deciphering.

Brian
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

So what is he talking about using 400-600 wet/dry paper.
I have a 240 brush.
Went 15 seconds in from the top with a good rhythm, 10 seconds from the bottom.
They look and feel great.
Just want to give them the finishing touches.
I am re-ringing the pistons and assembling them this evening.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

Bug53 wrote:
mark tucker wrote:
for the most part knock the tooth off. I use total seal rings is most everything Ive built in the past 35 years. IMHO they are more needed in a street engine. I use sunnen hone to hone my cylinders with fine stones. if you dont have that I would just use some 400-600 wet/dry with warm soap&water and used the palm of you have to "hone" the cylinders to knock the tooth off. be sure to properly clean them befor and after doing this. that rough hone on them holds all kinds of debris.as well as folded torn riped iron that will come off when the right scrap by it and thus eating your rings and filling your skirt/kilt with iron fragments. as well as sending part of it through the oil into your pump& bearings if you donut have a good filter and change it befor it's cloged up with cam lube&iron.


Can you clarify the part about the "palm" of you have to hone? What exactly do you mean?
the soft part of your hand neer your thumb, unless your hand is flexable enough or small enough to use the entire palm. my hands barly fit reall tight in a 94 bore. they wont go in a stock bore. good even pressure not spoty pressure like your fingers wood doo. I have dingle ball hones. they are for cleaning lightly rusted bores for inspection as rust will effup good stones and not good for dial bore gauges either.. I do not /will not use a ball /flex hone for honing or ring prep. Imho they are shit. and worth about $12 for a cleaning tool. a sunnen typ hone isant much more than the $75. flex hone when you get one used off flebay or swap meat. then put new fine stones in it, they are cheep . donut forget to use honing oil.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Honing new cylinders Reply with quote

240 grit brush in the top 15 seconds
In the bottom 10 seconds
Hand finished with 400 wet/dry paper and soapy water.
Gave them a bath in Dawn and warm water.
All lapped into the cylinder heads.

Onto my rings and the install.

Thanks for all who contributed and taking the time to help.
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Last edited by Bug53 on Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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