Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Class 11 style build questions(transmission)
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> HBB Off-Road Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Incu
Samba Member


Joined: February 26, 2023
Posts: 13
Location: Southern California
Incu is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:20 pm    Post subject: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

Hello all,

I recently acquired a stripped '69 bug from my uncle for my wife. It's been her favorite car since she was a child. This will be my first restore on a car. By stripped I mean fenders off, wiring completely pulled out, interior completely dismantled. Exterior paint is sanded off. Interior is not. Still has its stock 1600 and stock trans in it.

I'll be going class 11 style, but not staying within spec. She doesn't want anything chopped off, but something we can take off-road and use for camping trips. She also plans to drive the thing to work often. We won't be jumping this thing, but I will be ripping with it from time to time. As a result, I've landed on the 1835 cc engine to put in it. 1835 because I was told its a reliable bigger engine and I won't have to modify the engine bay to get it in.

Here's where I need help: Transmission....
So my knowledge on transmissions is very minimal. I understand the concept, but have no idea what gear ratios(other than making gears "shorter" or "longer") are. I dont know what 3.88 means(or any other set of numbers like it), and I feel like I'll never truly grasp that concept. Had a guy that hot rods at work try to explain it, and it went way over my head. He did say to stay away from anything in the 4s(whatever the hell that means).

With a larger engine, I'm guessing I need to run a different trans to handle the power? If so, what are some routes I can take to get a reliable trans in the bug without modifying the body to make it fit?

I've been scouring this forum, and I've heard mention of getting a trans rebuilt for class 11. I'm in SoCal. I'm dumping money into this, so if it's best to get a beefed up trans from someone reputable, I might go that route.
If there's another stock trans from another VW that'll fit in place of the one I have now, and will handle the 1835, I'd rather go that route. My wife's a welder, so we can fab some stuff, but I'm trying to keep it minimal.

Also, wtf is a freeway flyer?

Any suggestions/ advice would be greatly appreciated. Links to youtube videos that'll make me better understand gearing ratios are also appreciated.
I'll post some photos of the build so far below:

Getting "Bichito" home.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


"Bichito" in the garage
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Engine dropped
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Interior pulled out(wasn't much. Box of parts, fenders inside, and 2 Honda Civic seats)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Found cancer on the pan. Bitch is going bye bye. Wolfsburg pan halves incoming.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Front tubes were cut and turned with adjusters welded on to lower the bug, so that's gotta go. Went to Pomona Swap Meet and found a stock tube to cut and turn!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'll be replacing every ball joint, bushing, rubber thing on the pan... Might as well while I've got the top off.

Cheers everyone!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
oprn
Samba Member


Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12632
Location: Western Canada
oprn is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

First off, whenever I hear "stripped the body to bare metal" I cringe! That is the first sign that the one doing the work has no idea what they are doing and if someone told him/her to do that then there are 2 of them without a clue. If it's rock chips, pealing paint, rust or accident damage, fine... take all the paint off but where the the paint is just weathered, sand it enough for a good bite on the new topcoat and leave it alone. You will never get adhesion to the base metal as good as the factory did!

A 1835 is not a monster engine by any means. There is absolutely no reason to "beef up" a transmission for normal driving. The stock one is plenty strong enough for an engine that size. Of course with enough abuse it is possible to brake anything but I assume you are not brain dead!

The term "freeway flyer" was invented by transmission rebuilders as a way to make customers think they are getting something extra special and get them to open their wallets wider. In actual fact all they are selling you is a late model transaxle that had already came from VW with a higher gear ratio.

As for choosing a gear ratio, try what you already have first. The choice depends on how/where to plan to do most of your driving and your choice of tire size.

If this is truly a camping/class 11 type car, I do not understand why you would be lowering the front axle... shouldn't you be raising it?
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
las912
Samba Member


Joined: April 02, 2014
Posts: 51
Location: Denmark
las912 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

The 3:88 number is the gearing of the final drive, ring and pinion in the differential. In this case you would have to turn the gearbox 3.88 revolutions to turn the wheels 1 revolution.
As you go through the gears, the gearbox spins faster and faster the higher gear you select and you go faster.
As you can imagine the higher the number for the ring and pinion, for instance 4.11 the slower top end you get. But more torque.

It will most often be specified 3.88 to 1 (3.88:1)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
cbeck
Samba Member


Joined: January 14, 2014
Posts: 2494
Location: high ridge, mo
cbeck is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

Might get some better trans answers if we knew what size tires you are going to run.
_________________
My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Incu
Samba Member


Joined: February 26, 2023
Posts: 13
Location: Southern California
Incu is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
First off, whenever I hear "stripped the body to bare metal" I cringe! That is the first sign that the one doing the work has no idea what they are doing and if someone told him/her to do that then there are 2 of them without a clue. If it's rock chips, pealing paint, rust or accident damage, fine... take all the paint off but where the the paint is just weathered, sand it enough for a good bite on the new topcoat and leave it alone. You will never get adhesion to the base metal as good as the factory did!

A 1835 is not a monster engine by any means. There is absolutely no reason to "beef up" a transmission for normal driving. The stock one is plenty strong enough for an engine that size. Of course with enough abuse it is possible to brake anything but I assume you are not brain dead!

The term "freeway flyer" was invented by transmission rebuilders as a way to make customers think they are getting something extra special and get them to open their wallets wider. In actual fact all they are selling you is a late model transaxle that had already came from VW with a higher gear ratio.

As for choosing a gear ratio, try what you already have first. The choice depends on how/where to plan to do most of your driving and your choice of tire size.

If this is truly a camping/class 11 type car, I do not understand why you would be lowering the front axle... shouldn't you be raising it?


So this bug sat in my uncles garage, untouched, for over 12 years. Not sure who took the paint off, but I appreciate your response, as I was going to do the same to the interior. I'll just give it a light sand then.

So the front beam(the yellow one in the photos) was already cut and turned with an adjuster on it to lower it when I bought the car. I want to lift it. That's why I took it off and bought a used stock beam to cut and turn for a lift. My uncle was gonna drop the bug to the ground. I plan to give "Bichito" a lift.

Having the body off the pan I just wanted to make sure I'm not messing with the trans for a loooong while. If that meant a new, better in some way, trans, then so be it. If the 1835 isn't going to completely destroy the current trans I have, then I'll roll with it.

I plan on putting a fuel cell where the back seat goes for extra range. Our camping trips will be all over the mountains in SoCal. Maybe even go up north and mob around up there as well. We'll be taking fire roads, mostly. Will NOT be taking it at a fast pace. Just wanted to cruise and be able to hill climb with no issue.

Thanks again for the input!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Incu
Samba Member


Joined: February 26, 2023
Posts: 13
Location: Southern California
Incu is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

cbeck wrote:
Might get some better trans answers if we knew what size tires you are going to run.


30-31 inch tires. Wanted to go a bit wider, but I'm torn as I know that'll put more surface area on the ground and add more stress. Will most likely just keep them on the stock rims.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Incu
Samba Member


Joined: February 26, 2023
Posts: 13
Location: Southern California
Incu is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

las912 wrote:
The 3:88 number is the gearing of the final drive, ring and pinion in the differential. In this case you would have to turn the gearbox 3.88 revolutions to turn the wheels 1 revolution.
As you go through the gears, the gearbox spins faster and faster the higher gear you select and you go faster.
As you can imagine the higher the number for the ring and pinion, for instance 4.11 the slower top end you get. But more torque.

It will most often be specified 3.88 to 1 (3.88:1)


Thank you for that explanation. That makes more sense. So, if I was racing on a course that won't ever let the trans get close to max speed with a 3.88, it'd be better to run a higher gear ratio, so you can get through gears quicker, yeah?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
las912
Samba Member


Joined: April 02, 2014
Posts: 51
Location: Denmark
las912 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

Yeah I suppose Smile Then you could go for a 4.11:1 if that's even a thing ( I can't remember the different ratios)
You could also just keep it in a lower gear and then still have the option to cruise to work with low load and reasonable rpm's

If you look for online transmission calculators you will see it's minimal difference in engine rpm's from a 3:88 to a 4:11 rear end.

But I would also recommend to start with what you got and adjust as you go.

As I recall, and I could be wrong! 30 inches is at the limit and any taller tires you'd have to clearance the rear fender well...... And the overall gearing will be much higher in both cases...

Cooling also becomes an issue with huge tires and thereby higher load on the engine and lower revs due to the high gearing from the tires.
Just a good thing to have in the back of your mind when driving it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
oprn
Samba Member


Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12632
Location: Western Canada
oprn is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

las912 wrote:
Cooling also becomes an issue with huge tires and thereby higher load on the engine and lower revs due to the high gearing from the tires.
Just a good thing to have in the back of your mind when driving it.

^^^This!^^^

The cooling fan is best suited to about 3000 engine rpm so plan your tire size and gearing so that at whatever cruise speed you plan on the engine is within about + - 200 rpm of that figure and you should have no cooling issues.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Incu
Samba Member


Joined: February 26, 2023
Posts: 13
Location: Southern California
Incu is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
las912 wrote:
Cooling also becomes an issue with huge tires and thereby higher load on the engine and lower revs due to the high gearing from the tires.
Just a good thing to have in the back of your mind when driving it.

^^^This!^^^

The cooling fan is best suited to about 3000 engine rpm so plan your tire size and gearing so that at whatever cruise speed you plan on the engine is within about + - 200 rpm of that figure and you should have no cooling issues.


Thanks for the reply dude. I'll definitely consider the cooling aspect of the whole thing. Didn't even consider it.

Literally got sucked into this bug thing the second I got it for the lady. I'm actually really having fun with it and learning a bunch, but I KNOW I don't it all.... So thank you all for giving me your time and knowledge.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
oprn
Samba Member


Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12632
Location: Western Canada
oprn is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:28 am    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

Chances are, if you have the original transaxle that your differential gearing is 4.12/1. With the additional power of your new engine that will allow you to go a bit taller on the tires and still be a pretty good all around compromise between highway and the back trails.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
71StandardReduction
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2012
Posts: 707
Location: Louisiana
71StandardReduction is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

Gonna be a nice ride I feel.
I'm silently searching for a 69/70 for a class 11 build myself... hard to find vw in my region though.
I'm after that year, Mainly bc they don't have the half Cresent vent behind the rear quarter window which allows them to rot to death in my climate and also they have the irs trans and balljoint front which is easier/more affordable to add lift spindles to.

Another honorable mention, it should have a dual spring plate, not a big deal but some say they are stronger and/have read you only have to notch the inner side for lifting/travel.

Your stock trans should be suitable for your build.
Ofcourse plan to upgrade the cv joints, stub axles and drive flanges since you plan on lifing it.

Plenty of good class 11 builds to read about here in this forum.
Just don't overthink it.
_________________
One thing I ask from the Lord, This only do I seek:
That I may dwell in the House of The Lord all the days of my Life, to gaze on the beauty of The Lord and to seek Him in His Temple~Psalms 27:4

YHWH NISSI
YHWH SHALOM

64 Pan Buggy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Ruby Red 1966
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=779597&highlight=

https://youtube.com/@SCOFabwerx?feature=shared


Last edited by 71StandardReduction on Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
oprn
Samba Member


Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12632
Location: Western Canada
oprn is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

71StandardReduction wrote:
Another honorable mention, it should have a dual spring plate, not a big deal but some say they are stronger and/have read you only have to notch the inner side for lifting/travel.

Of course plan to upgrade the cv joints, stub axles and drive flanges since you plan on lifting it.

The above doesn't apply to swing axles which is what the OP has.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
71StandardReduction
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2012
Posts: 707
Location: Louisiana
71StandardReduction is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
71StandardReduction wrote:
Another honorable mention, it should have a dual spring plate, not a big deal but some say they are stronger and/have read you only have to notch the inner side for lifting/travel.

Of course plan to upgrade the cv joints, stub axles and drive flanges since you plan on lifting it.

The above doesn't apply to swing axles which is what the OP has.


Did I miss where there was mention of swapping to a swingaxle?
The 69 in the pics above has an irs setup, I can't see the spring plates well enough though to know which style it has.
_________________
One thing I ask from the Lord, This only do I seek:
That I may dwell in the House of The Lord all the days of my Life, to gaze on the beauty of The Lord and to seek Him in His Temple~Psalms 27:4

YHWH NISSI
YHWH SHALOM

64 Pan Buggy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Ruby Red 1966
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=779597&highlight=

https://youtube.com/@SCOFabwerx?feature=shared
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
oprn
Samba Member


Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12632
Location: Western Canada
oprn is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:39 am    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

You are correct! My bad, on a second closer look it is an IRS car. Sorry!
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Mal evolent
Samba Member


Joined: March 31, 2009
Posts: 2912
Location: San Antonio, Nuevo Mexico
Mal evolent is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

short and to the point:

3.88s were introduced after the "fuel shortage" in 1973. acceleration like an arthritic turtle.
4.125 was factory stock before the 3.88s. I never got mine into 4th gear with 4.125s, 31-10.50 15s and a 1776
4.56 would be my choice with LT235-75 R15s and a 2220 ( 94 X 80 ) engine.
4.88s are one step too far for my tastes, on a street driven car

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143138
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...a2b0f3dc14
_________________
73 Beetle Baja, Ghia front brakes, Type 3 rear brakes, 2220 ( 94 X 80 ), Weber Progressive, Bosch SVDA, '97 Mustang seats

Baja Bugs for Volkswagen Virgins: Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
cbeck
Samba Member


Joined: January 14, 2014
Posts: 2494
Location: high ridge, mo
cbeck is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

I belieeve stock single side cover irs came with the 3.88 rp, while the double side cover trans came with the 4.12 rp. Couldn't find a clear pic of yours.
Cam/ engine combo, tire size, and gearing all need to play nice with each other.
_________________
My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member


Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
jsturtlebuggy is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

Here a list of codes for type 1 transaxle that can be found on right side of main case
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
71StandardReduction
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2012
Posts: 707
Location: Louisiana
71StandardReduction is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
You are correct! My bad, on a second closer look it is an IRS car. Sorry!


No problem! Made me look twice though.
_________________
One thing I ask from the Lord, This only do I seek:
That I may dwell in the House of The Lord all the days of my Life, to gaze on the beauty of The Lord and to seek Him in His Temple~Psalms 27:4

YHWH NISSI
YHWH SHALOM

64 Pan Buggy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Ruby Red 1966
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=779597&highlight=

https://youtube.com/@SCOFabwerx?feature=shared
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DesertSasquatchXploration
Samba Member


Joined: April 16, 2021
Posts: 502

DesertSasquatchXploration is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) Reply with quote

You want a 4:37 and 235 75 15 tires works good in sand and street, fantastic off road. I had 31 inch tires for a couple years did nothing for the off-road capability motor runs hotter and is hard on wheel bearings.

I used Benco in Riverside they are priced more reasonable and do great work they have a proven build for Baja Bugs I couldn't be happier with mine been 40K no issues i've beat it good Off Road. When you pay in cash most shops knock a little off the bill.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> HBB Off-Road All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.