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Incu Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2023 Posts: 13 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:20 pm Post subject: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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Hello all,
I recently acquired a stripped '69 bug from my uncle for my wife. It's been her favorite car since she was a child. This will be my first restore on a car. By stripped I mean fenders off, wiring completely pulled out, interior completely dismantled. Exterior paint is sanded off. Interior is not. Still has its stock 1600 and stock trans in it.
I'll be going class 11 style, but not staying within spec. She doesn't want anything chopped off, but something we can take off-road and use for camping trips. She also plans to drive the thing to work often. We won't be jumping this thing, but I will be ripping with it from time to time. As a result, I've landed on the 1835 cc engine to put in it. 1835 because I was told its a reliable bigger engine and I won't have to modify the engine bay to get it in.
Here's where I need help: Transmission....
So my knowledge on transmissions is very minimal. I understand the concept, but have no idea what gear ratios(other than making gears "shorter" or "longer") are. I dont know what 3.88 means(or any other set of numbers like it), and I feel like I'll never truly grasp that concept. Had a guy that hot rods at work try to explain it, and it went way over my head. He did say to stay away from anything in the 4s(whatever the hell that means).
With a larger engine, I'm guessing I need to run a different trans to handle the power? If so, what are some routes I can take to get a reliable trans in the bug without modifying the body to make it fit?
I've been scouring this forum, and I've heard mention of getting a trans rebuilt for class 11. I'm in SoCal. I'm dumping money into this, so if it's best to get a beefed up trans from someone reputable, I might go that route.
If there's another stock trans from another VW that'll fit in place of the one I have now, and will handle the 1835, I'd rather go that route. My wife's a welder, so we can fab some stuff, but I'm trying to keep it minimal.
Also, wtf is a freeway flyer?
Any suggestions/ advice would be greatly appreciated. Links to youtube videos that'll make me better understand gearing ratios are also appreciated.
I'll post some photos of the build so far below:
Getting "Bichito" home.
"Bichito" in the garage
Engine dropped
Interior pulled out(wasn't much. Box of parts, fenders inside, and 2 Honda Civic seats)
Found cancer on the pan. Bitch is going bye bye. Wolfsburg pan halves incoming.
Front tubes were cut and turned with adjusters welded on to lower the bug, so that's gotta go. Went to Pomona Swap Meet and found a stock tube to cut and turn!
I'll be replacing every ball joint, bushing, rubber thing on the pan... Might as well while I've got the top off.
Cheers everyone! |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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First off, whenever I hear "stripped the body to bare metal" I cringe! That is the first sign that the one doing the work has no idea what they are doing and if someone told him/her to do that then there are 2 of them without a clue. If it's rock chips, pealing paint, rust or accident damage, fine... take all the paint off but where the the paint is just weathered, sand it enough for a good bite on the new topcoat and leave it alone. You will never get adhesion to the base metal as good as the factory did!
A 1835 is not a monster engine by any means. There is absolutely no reason to "beef up" a transmission for normal driving. The stock one is plenty strong enough for an engine that size. Of course with enough abuse it is possible to brake anything but I assume you are not brain dead!
The term "freeway flyer" was invented by transmission rebuilders as a way to make customers think they are getting something extra special and get them to open their wallets wider. In actual fact all they are selling you is a late model transaxle that had already came from VW with a higher gear ratio.
As for choosing a gear ratio, try what you already have first. The choice depends on how/where to plan to do most of your driving and your choice of tire size.
If this is truly a camping/class 11 type car, I do not understand why you would be lowering the front axle... shouldn't you be raising it? _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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las912 Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2014 Posts: 51 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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The 3:88 number is the gearing of the final drive, ring and pinion in the differential. In this case you would have to turn the gearbox 3.88 revolutions to turn the wheels 1 revolution.
As you go through the gears, the gearbox spins faster and faster the higher gear you select and you go faster.
As you can imagine the higher the number for the ring and pinion, for instance 4.11 the slower top end you get. But more torque.
It will most often be specified 3.88 to 1 (3.88:1) |
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cbeck Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014 Posts: 2494 Location: high ridge, mo
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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Might get some better trans answers if we knew what size tires you are going to run. _________________ My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779 |
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Incu Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2023 Posts: 13 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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oprn wrote: |
First off, whenever I hear "stripped the body to bare metal" I cringe! That is the first sign that the one doing the work has no idea what they are doing and if someone told him/her to do that then there are 2 of them without a clue. If it's rock chips, pealing paint, rust or accident damage, fine... take all the paint off but where the the paint is just weathered, sand it enough for a good bite on the new topcoat and leave it alone. You will never get adhesion to the base metal as good as the factory did!
A 1835 is not a monster engine by any means. There is absolutely no reason to "beef up" a transmission for normal driving. The stock one is plenty strong enough for an engine that size. Of course with enough abuse it is possible to brake anything but I assume you are not brain dead!
The term "freeway flyer" was invented by transmission rebuilders as a way to make customers think they are getting something extra special and get them to open their wallets wider. In actual fact all they are selling you is a late model transaxle that had already came from VW with a higher gear ratio.
As for choosing a gear ratio, try what you already have first. The choice depends on how/where to plan to do most of your driving and your choice of tire size.
If this is truly a camping/class 11 type car, I do not understand why you would be lowering the front axle... shouldn't you be raising it? |
So this bug sat in my uncles garage, untouched, for over 12 years. Not sure who took the paint off, but I appreciate your response, as I was going to do the same to the interior. I'll just give it a light sand then.
So the front beam(the yellow one in the photos) was already cut and turned with an adjuster on it to lower it when I bought the car. I want to lift it. That's why I took it off and bought a used stock beam to cut and turn for a lift. My uncle was gonna drop the bug to the ground. I plan to give "Bichito" a lift.
Having the body off the pan I just wanted to make sure I'm not messing with the trans for a loooong while. If that meant a new, better in some way, trans, then so be it. If the 1835 isn't going to completely destroy the current trans I have, then I'll roll with it.
I plan on putting a fuel cell where the back seat goes for extra range. Our camping trips will be all over the mountains in SoCal. Maybe even go up north and mob around up there as well. We'll be taking fire roads, mostly. Will NOT be taking it at a fast pace. Just wanted to cruise and be able to hill climb with no issue.
Thanks again for the input! |
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Incu Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2023 Posts: 13 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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cbeck wrote: |
Might get some better trans answers if we knew what size tires you are going to run. |
30-31 inch tires. Wanted to go a bit wider, but I'm torn as I know that'll put more surface area on the ground and add more stress. Will most likely just keep them on the stock rims. |
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Incu Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2023 Posts: 13 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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las912 wrote: |
The 3:88 number is the gearing of the final drive, ring and pinion in the differential. In this case you would have to turn the gearbox 3.88 revolutions to turn the wheels 1 revolution.
As you go through the gears, the gearbox spins faster and faster the higher gear you select and you go faster.
As you can imagine the higher the number for the ring and pinion, for instance 4.11 the slower top end you get. But more torque.
It will most often be specified 3.88 to 1 (3.88:1) |
Thank you for that explanation. That makes more sense. So, if I was racing on a course that won't ever let the trans get close to max speed with a 3.88, it'd be better to run a higher gear ratio, so you can get through gears quicker, yeah? |
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las912 Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2014 Posts: 51 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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Yeah I suppose Then you could go for a 4.11:1 if that's even a thing ( I can't remember the different ratios)
You could also just keep it in a lower gear and then still have the option to cruise to work with low load and reasonable rpm's
If you look for online transmission calculators you will see it's minimal difference in engine rpm's from a 3:88 to a 4:11 rear end.
But I would also recommend to start with what you got and adjust as you go.
As I recall, and I could be wrong! 30 inches is at the limit and any taller tires you'd have to clearance the rear fender well...... And the overall gearing will be much higher in both cases...
Cooling also becomes an issue with huge tires and thereby higher load on the engine and lower revs due to the high gearing from the tires.
Just a good thing to have in the back of your mind when driving it. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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las912 wrote: |
Cooling also becomes an issue with huge tires and thereby higher load on the engine and lower revs due to the high gearing from the tires.
Just a good thing to have in the back of your mind when driving it. |
^^^This!^^^
The cooling fan is best suited to about 3000 engine rpm so plan your tire size and gearing so that at whatever cruise speed you plan on the engine is within about + - 200 rpm of that figure and you should have no cooling issues. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Incu Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2023 Posts: 13 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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oprn wrote: |
las912 wrote: |
Cooling also becomes an issue with huge tires and thereby higher load on the engine and lower revs due to the high gearing from the tires.
Just a good thing to have in the back of your mind when driving it. |
^^^This!^^^
The cooling fan is best suited to about 3000 engine rpm so plan your tire size and gearing so that at whatever cruise speed you plan on the engine is within about + - 200 rpm of that figure and you should have no cooling issues. |
Thanks for the reply dude. I'll definitely consider the cooling aspect of the whole thing. Didn't even consider it.
Literally got sucked into this bug thing the second I got it for the lady. I'm actually really having fun with it and learning a bunch, but I KNOW I don't it all.... So thank you all for giving me your time and knowledge. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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Chances are, if you have the original transaxle that your differential gearing is 4.12/1. With the additional power of your new engine that will allow you to go a bit taller on the tires and still be a pretty good all around compromise between highway and the back trails. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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71StandardReduction Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2012 Posts: 707 Location: Louisiana
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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Gonna be a nice ride I feel.
I'm silently searching for a 69/70 for a class 11 build myself... hard to find vw in my region though.
I'm after that year, Mainly bc they don't have the half Cresent vent behind the rear quarter window which allows them to rot to death in my climate and also they have the irs trans and balljoint front which is easier/more affordable to add lift spindles to.
Another honorable mention, it should have a dual spring plate, not a big deal but some say they are stronger and/have read you only have to notch the inner side for lifting/travel.
Your stock trans should be suitable for your build.
Ofcourse plan to upgrade the cv joints, stub axles and drive flanges since you plan on lifing it.
Plenty of good class 11 builds to read about here in this forum.
Just don't overthink it. _________________ One thing I ask from the Lord, This only do I seek:
That I may dwell in the House of The Lord all the days of my Life, to gaze on the beauty of The Lord and to seek Him in His Temple~Psalms 27:4
YHWH NISSI
YHWH SHALOM
64 Pan Buggy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Ruby Red 1966
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=779597&highlight=
https://youtube.com/@SCOFabwerx?feature=shared
Last edited by 71StandardReduction on Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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71StandardReduction wrote: |
Another honorable mention, it should have a dual spring plate, not a big deal but some say they are stronger and/have read you only have to notch the inner side for lifting/travel.
Of course plan to upgrade the cv joints, stub axles and drive flanges since you plan on lifting it. |
The above doesn't apply to swing axles which is what the OP has. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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71StandardReduction Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2012 Posts: 707 Location: Louisiana
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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oprn wrote: |
71StandardReduction wrote: |
Another honorable mention, it should have a dual spring plate, not a big deal but some say they are stronger and/have read you only have to notch the inner side for lifting/travel.
Of course plan to upgrade the cv joints, stub axles and drive flanges since you plan on lifting it. |
The above doesn't apply to swing axles which is what the OP has. |
Did I miss where there was mention of swapping to a swingaxle?
The 69 in the pics above has an irs setup, I can't see the spring plates well enough though to know which style it has. _________________ One thing I ask from the Lord, This only do I seek:
That I may dwell in the House of The Lord all the days of my Life, to gaze on the beauty of The Lord and to seek Him in His Temple~Psalms 27:4
YHWH NISSI
YHWH SHALOM
64 Pan Buggy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Ruby Red 1966
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=779597&highlight=
https://youtube.com/@SCOFabwerx?feature=shared |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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You are correct! My bad, on a second closer look it is an IRS car. Sorry! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Mal evolent Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2009 Posts: 2912 Location: San Antonio, Nuevo Mexico
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cbeck Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014 Posts: 2494 Location: high ridge, mo
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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I belieeve stock single side cover irs came with the 3.88 rp, while the double side cover trans came with the 4.12 rp. Couldn't find a clear pic of yours.
Cam/ engine combo, tire size, and gearing all need to play nice with each other. _________________ My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779 |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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Here a list of codes for type 1 transaxle that can be found on right side of main case
_________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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71StandardReduction Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2012 Posts: 707 Location: Louisiana
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DesertSasquatchXploration Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2021 Posts: 502
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Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Class 11 style build questions(transmission) |
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You want a 4:37 and 235 75 15 tires works good in sand and street, fantastic off road. I had 31 inch tires for a couple years did nothing for the off-road capability motor runs hotter and is hard on wheel bearings.
I used Benco in Riverside they are priced more reasonable and do great work they have a proven build for Baja Bugs I couldn't be happier with mine been 40K no issues i've beat it good Off Road. When you pay in cash most shops knock a little off the bill. |
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