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Adriel Rowley
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Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1429
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 Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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The gold Standard is Starrett.
Also:
Brown & Sharpe
Mitutoyo
.
. |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3291
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Dusty1 wrote: |
The gold Standard is Starrett.
Also:
Brown & Sharpe
Mitutoyo
.
. |
Thanks. 
Interesting Fowler is junk, a lot of vintage tools by this brand. Also Central, though all that seeing are rusty. |
Older Folwer stuff is just fine, and will work for what you need building an engine.
You don't need to pay inflated Starret prices to measure imported parts.
Brian
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boxkiteflyer
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2008
Posts: 261
Location: Taylorsville, KY
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| My Fowler 6” mechanical stainless steel micrometer is as accurate as my buddy’s Starrett. I wouldn’t consider it junk, either. It is very smooth in operation. I don’t use it day in and day out like a professional machinist so can’t say anything about how it would wear over time. It should be fine for the hobbyist like me without having to spend bigger bucks. Mine is made stateside which is also a plus as far as I’m concerned. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Dusty1 wrote: |
The gold Standard is Starrett.
Also:
Brown & Sharpe
Mitutoyo
.
. |
Thanks.
Interesting Fowler is junk, a lot of vintage tools by this brand. Also Central, though all that seeing are rusty. |
Older Folwer stuff is just fine, and will work for what you need building an engine.
You don't need to pay inflated Starret prices to measure imported parts.
Brian |
Well said.
Even "most" newer Fowler in the realm of micrometers (not digital calipers) will be just fine for limited use. If it was going to be a professional tool....measuring many times a day f9r years, the cheaper versions of newer tools made in Asia will start getting sloppy from wear quick.
If it's the fowler dial bore gauge you are looking at versus the no name one in the orange box.....etc the cheapest one that comes with the highest resolution dial gauge.....as the fowler is made in the same factory in China.
For the record.....Starrett is the gold standard for many hand measuring tools. However there are certain tools in certain categories that Mitutoyo makes that are actually better. Ray |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5412
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Dusty1 wrote: |
The gold Standard is Starrett.
Also:
Brown & Sharpe
Mitutoyo
.
. |
Thanks.
Interesting Fowler is junk, a lot of vintage tools by this brand. Also Central, though all that seeing are rusty. |
Nobody here said anything of the sort… not sure why Dusty1’ response to you comment led you conclude Fowler is junk…
Fowler has an enormous range of metrology equipment. Everything from cheap import products, all the way to top of the line CMM equipment, etc. they also partner with some other companies to co-develop products specific to them. For example, they have a line of sweet Bower hole gauges, Sylvac micrometers, etc… You just have to know what you are getting.
I have quite a few Fowler products, and they are good… but I also didn’t buy their cheapest products either. I haven’t had any issues, and most importantly, they are repeatable! Repeatability is the name of the game. If you have a standard to check against, repeatability can be transfered to accuracy.
The good thing about Fowler, is they have great support, like Mitutoyo and Starret. So, even for the lower end products, a little extra $ over the no name equivalent is worth it.
What ever gauges you get, you need standards to check against. Standard bars for a micrometer are a 100% must. A bore gauge is super nice to use with gauge blocks and a setting master, but if you are skilled, you can get nearly as good of measurements by using a micrometer to set a bore gauge. It is a little more fiddly to get right because you have to set it dead nuts straight between the anvils, but it works.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Dusty1 wrote: |
The gold Standard is Starrett.
Also:
Brown & Sharpe
Mitutoyo
.
. |
Thanks.
Interesting Fowler is junk, a lot of vintage tools by this brand. Also Central, though all that seeing are rusty. |
Older Folwer stuff is just fine, and will work for what you need building an engine.
You don't need to pay inflated Starret prices to measure imported parts.
Brian |
Brian, appreciate the help.
So how does one tell if vintage? 
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Dusty1 wrote: |
The gold Standard is Starrett.
Also:
Brown & Sharpe
Mitutoyo
.
. |
Thanks.
Interesting Fowler is junk, a lot of vintage tools by this brand. Also Central, though all that seeing are rusty. |
Nobody here said anything of the sort… not sure why Dusty1’ response to you comment led you conclude Fowler is junk… |
Took the list to be all there is, rather then a partial.
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Fowler has an enormous range of metrology equipment. Everything from cheap import products, all the way to top of the line CMM equipment, etc. they also partner with some other companies to co-develop products specific to them. For example, they have a line of sweet Bower hole gauges, Sylvac micrometers, etc… You just have to know what you are getting.
I have quite a few Fowler products, and they are good… but I also didn’t buy their cheapest products either. I haven’t had any issues, and most importantly, they are repeatable! Repeatability is the name of the game. If you have a standard to check against, repeatability can be transfered to accuracy. |
So when buying, especially used, how does one know if getting a useable product?
Yes, repeatability is a must. My digital caliper is inaccurate though so far shown repeatability. At least one of my science teachers back in High School ingrained this in my brain, was even on the midterm or final.
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| The good thing about Fowler, is they have great support, like Mitutoyo and Starret. So, even for the lower end products, a little extra $ over the no name equivalent is worth it. |
Even without proof of purchase? Wright Tools is this way, didn't ask, just sent a replacement out same day and arrived in a couple.
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| What ever gauges you get, you need standards to check against. Standard bars for a micrometer are a 100% must. A bore gauge is super nice to use with gauge blocks and a setting master, but if you are skilled, you can get nearly as good of measurements by using a micrometer to set a bore gauge. It is a little more fiddly to get right because you have to set it dead nuts straight between the anvils, but it works. |
Yes, almost forgot about the standard.
Interesting using another gauge to set accuracy, since don't have a standard, used one caliper to check another, of course in the range I was measuring.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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Somehow getting mixed up on the posts, hopefully don't miss anymore...
| boxkiteflyer wrote: |
| My Fowler 6” mechanical stainless steel micrometer is as accurate as my buddy’s Starrett. I wouldn’t consider it junk, either. It is very smooth in operation. I don’t use it day in and day out like a professional machinist so can’t say anything about how it would wear over time. It should be fine for the hobbyist like me without having to spend bigger bucks. Mine is made stateside which is also a plus as far as I’m concerned. |
Interesting, appreciate you sharing. Guess at least part of the additional cost is the name.
Exactly, good enough for occasional work is all we need.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Brian_e wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Dusty1 wrote: |
The gold Standard is Starrett.
Also:
Brown & Sharpe
Mitutoyo
.
. |
Thanks.
Interesting Fowler is junk, a lot of vintage tools by this brand. Also Central, though all that seeing are rusty. |
Older Folwer stuff is just fine, and will work for what you need building an engine.
You don't need to pay inflated Starret prices to measure imported parts.
Brian |
Well said.
Even "most" newer Fowler in the realm of micrometers (not digital calipers) will be just fine for limited use. If it was going to be a professional tool....measuring many times a day f9r years, the cheaper versions of newer tools made in Asia will start getting sloppy from wear quick.
If it's the fowler dial bore gauge you are looking at versus the no name one in the orange box.....etc the cheapest one that comes with the highest resolution dial gauge.....as the fowler is made in the same factory in China.
For the record.....Starrett is the gold standard for many hand measuring tools. However there are certain tools in certain categories that Mitutoyo makes that are actually better. Ray |
Ray, this has to be one of the shortest posts you ever done.  (Teasing you, mine also can run a little long.)
Not seeing a country of origin, be surprised if China, based on an understanding factories started moving over there about 30 years ago. You see one?
As for Mitutoyo, there is this.
Let me make clear both are eBay listings, not something owned myself.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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jimmyhoffa
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014
Posts: 1058
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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I have built about 10-12 engines with my Fowler Dial Bore Gauge and none of them have exploded. In almost every case my Fowler alerted me to something that could have easily caused a failure either immediately or in the near future. I then repaired or re-fitted whatever offending component it was, and have not had any engine failures.
Do I miss my Sunnen accurate to half a ten-thousanth? Yep. But thieves, they be stealin'. You know how that goes.  I've gotten along allright with my Fowler. It's a crappier new one too, not a nicer vintage one.
_________________
1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1429
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
You don't need to pay inflated Starret prices to measure imported parts.
|
There is an annual small engine show in Athol right around the corner from Starrett. Sometimes the old timers show up and sell their old Starrett stuff for way less than they paid for it back when they worked at Starrett.
Starrett used to have a "factory outlet store" on site. They sold quite a bit of inventory to a guy who re- sold it at New England swap meets.
Starrett micrometers show up all the time at yard sales in New England.
Even better...
A while ago there was a Starrett 1" micrometer in its original box daintily perched on top of the junk in the scrap metal container at the local transfer station. I said,
"Hello, Beautiful! You're comin' home with me!"
It's in the drawer in my Gerstner chest with its American made buddies.
.
. |
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bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 3579
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| I have a small collection of machinist measuring tools. I am NOT a machinist, weird right. All the names mentioned and more I own. I also have quality standards. I like vintage E-Bay in wood case or clam shell vinyl or leather or bakelite do it for me. I like the feel of Starrett mics but I like Federal dial indicators. Central is another brand that is good quality. Not much can go bad with a mechanical gauge. unless the screw is stripped or missing a chunk of thread. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26787
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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For the vintage medium quality I like Phase II, SPI, Smiec
Buying used is a gamble, 50percent of being good at half the price, but that's still better value than new sometimes because not all new tools prove good.
Checking one caliper against another is confusing, but checking your dial caliper against something of 10x greater accuracy close to the size you are measuring you can double the accuracy of the calipers at that size.
I do that often. |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 5969
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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The thing to know with the Fowler bore gauge, is that the spring is strong enough to scratch your bearings if you aren't careful. Take the stalk apart, and you will find it has two springs inside. I removed one, and the unit runs much softer now, though is still accurate.
I have a full set of Mitutoyo metric combimikes, that I won on eBay. They've been a pleasure to use.
S:Paid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpPKiBhDvARIsACn-gzC0fyamHaH_bDklV7olu5qBI-9p7URWJU4WZjrPjklcJcASBUHK0CAaAqqGEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds" target="_blank">https://www.grainger.com/product/6NPZ8?gucid=N:N...lsrc=aw.ds
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| jimmyhoffa wrote: |
| I have built about 10-12 engines with my Fowler Dial Bore Gauge and none of them have exploded. In almost every case my Fowler alerted me to something that could have easily caused a failure either immediately or in the near future. I then repaired or re-fitted whatever offending component it was, and have not had any engine failures. |
Appreciate the information.
| jimmyhoffa wrote: |
| Do I miss my Sunnen accurate to half a ten-thousanth? Yep. But thieves, they be stealin'. You know how that goes. I've gotten along allright with my Fowler. It's a crappier new one too, not a nicer vintage one. |
Sadly I do. The first tool I ever bought was a 1/2 inch socket set when 13 years old, stolen along with my 3/8 inch set, and a tap and die set. However, didn't have any of Opa's tools over there, so could have been worse. Guess saying understand the feeling.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Dusty1 wrote: |
| Brian_e wrote: |
You don't need to pay inflated Starret prices to measure imported parts.
|
There is an annual small engine show in Athol right around the corner from Starrett. Sometimes the old timers show up and sell their old Starrett stuff for way less than they paid for it back when they worked at Starrett.
Starrett used to have a "factory outlet store" on site. They sold quite a bit of inventory to a guy who re- sold it at New England swap meets.
Starrett micrometers show up all the time at yard sales in New England.
Even better...
A while ago there was a Starrett 1" micrometer in its original box daintily perched on top of the junk in the scrap metal container at the local transfer station. I said,
"Hello, Beautiful! You're comin' home with me!"
It's in the drawer in my Gerstner chest with its American made buddies.
.
. |
Well, if I was in New England be broke buying Starretts. 
Sure fortunate to find one in a scrap metal pile. Congratulations.
Amazing folks throw away, just in the year lived here, got an Ikea cart really being wanting for the work room with sewing and tailoring supplies needed at arms length, plus an extra large dog carrier. Cart needs wheels, supposedly free replacements coming, and carrier needed hardware that was under $10 shipped (these carriers cost over $100 new).
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| bsairhead wrote: |
| I have a small collection of machinist measuring tools. I am NOT a machinist, weird right. All the names mentioned and more I own. I also have quality standards. I like vintage E-Bay in wood case or clam shell vinyl or leather or bakelite do it for me. I like the feel of Starrett mics but I like Federal dial indicators. Central is another brand that is good quality. Not much can go bad with a mechanical gauge. unless the screw is stripped or missing a chunk of thread. |
Tools are fun to collect, trouble is when fill a rolling tool box and don't have room for another, can be a problem.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| modok wrote: |
| For the vintage medium quality I like Phase II, SPI, Smiec |
Appreciate knowing. Saw Phase II and passed based on the name.
| modok wrote: |
| Buying used is a gamble, 50percent of being good at half the price, but that's still better value than new sometimes because not all new tools prove good. |
If an eBay item is not as described, once know how to go through the claim process, eBay will refund. If damaged in shipping, I usually file with Visa as eBay will do nothing and usually the shipper will not either, don't care as have their money.
| modok wrote: |
Checking one caliper against another is confusing, but checking your dial caliper against something of 10x greater accuracy close to the size you are measuring you can double the accuracy of the calipers at that size.
I do that often. |
It was not for me, though only checking to see if accurate, rather then know how accurate with 20 significant figures. 
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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