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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13281
Location: Tejas!
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 Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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Y'all play nice. The guy is autistic and going through the learning process. No need to be a shit head (some of you or ALWAYS shit heads, you really don't have to answer, just back space and move on to a new thread)
Adriel - Maybe it would be helpful to note this in your signature. You're really smart about a lot of stuff, so most people likely have no idea your struggles to make this all make sense and be right |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| If you look at that website I posted with the dial indicators I think they will also sell bore gauge sets. It is hard to navigate, but as I also said before look in the catalog of your chosen brand to find the part number of what you want and then you should be able to find it by searching the part number. |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| You dont have the mind set to deal with this. Either pay someone to do what you want or find a new hobby. Metric arguement makes no sense. You dont have a calculator? |
Chris, what did I do to deserve your extreme rudeness? I have been nothing but kind and pleasant on this thread and elsewhere on the forum.
Neither is an option. Firstly, there is no way to get to a shop and have the work performed (not any friends and no forum member owns a Volkswagen on the east side, so no one to offer). Secondly, need a vehicle to drive and can't sell a vehicle which belongs to the family. I have put in over $5000 and no way would a family member even give me a penny.
As to having a calculator, I do not, nor why bother with spending time doing calculations if don't have to? So asked the question and if the answer is metric does not exist below $150, then of course will buy a calculator, less cost.
If folks don't have the ability or knowledge to answer this or the other question, then fine, then have to buy a new imperial bore gauge. Though be a bit surprised as a $12 bore gauge has already been mentioned, however, not enough details to find and purchase.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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Adrial said:
| Quote: |
| Ray, long ago the conversation moved from micrometers to bore gauges, as now thanks to a generous forum member, have a set. |
Yes I know that. The point...as I stated...is that I was using micrometers as a comparison making a general quality statement about two different tool lines.
The quality, shape and concepts are similar across tool types within each manufacturers catalog.
| Quote: |
| As for China, I have a strong preference for not purchasing from them because of human exploitation and persecution. |
True and I agree, however do not let that guide you too strongly. You can bet that in all but the most expensive precision tools (and even in some of those)...there will probably be Chinese materials or specific sub assembly parts even if the tool says made in Switzerland or Germany.
If you are shopping for tools that have no linkage to China, you will either buy something that you were lied to about or have very few choices....or even fewer affordable choices.
| Quote: |
Again, any reason to go this precise with an engine build? |
YES! I do not care what anyone says here. I do not care how many thousands of engines they may have built. Precision measurement is precision measurement.
The rule is if you want "X" tolerance you need a gauge with 2X the precision or you will never know if you are tight or loose.
Example: If you are measuring something like a rod bore and your tolerances are measured in the 0.001" range....you need a gauge that has increments that are 1/2 that in accuracy...meaning 0.0005".
Using a gauge that has increments of only 0.001"....reading with the needle in between two marks is no guarantee of being 1/2 thousandth by any means.
This is why most cheap dial bore gauges come with only a 0.0005" dial indicator, They are really for measuring bores whose tolerances are +/- 0.001".
further,,,,If what you are measuring will have tolerances written like 0.0015"...in order to read that 0.0005" with any accuracy, you need a gauge that repeats to increments of 0.0001".
And...likewise I have seen a few special dial indicators that read 0.00025". They are quite expensive.
Like the Starrett 656 series:
https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-656-224J-INDICATOR-025-00025/dp/B000VDVQRC
Why would you want one like that and not just a 0.0005" or a 0.0001" gauge? Because its a tradeoff between having enough precision to read measurements with higher tolerances than just 0.001"....and having a longer travel/reach of the gauge.
Modok said and Adrial quoted and said:
| Quote: |
modok wrote:
Something like 90% of all the new stuff we are discussing are all made in china right now.
in case you didn't know.
I say less then 50 percent: Fowler is either depending on if going with age (still up in the air), SPI is Asia, China, and Europe, and Mitutoyo is Japanese.
If used is fully eliminated, then about 50 percent since eliminates American Fowler bore gauge. |
Actually what modok said is probably closer to the truth. Not many precision tools of any type are FULLY built in the country whose origin they claim.
If thats the worry, I would say a higher percentage of Japanese tools are either fully built in Japan or have the highest percentage of domestic parts + assembly than for instance...the European. Germany for instance has been fighting the "made in Germany" vs "product of Germany" legal definition for years.
Under that legal framework You can have tools whose components are almost fully manufactured outside of Germany and only assembly is done in Germany....and they still may have a deceiving "product of Germany" label.
Vanapplebomb said:
| Quote: |
A 75$ tool will last for thousands of measurements… no idea why you are concerned about it only potentially lasting one engine build.
It has become clear that you are not familiar with measuring equipment. As such, you need to learn what you are doing. A cheap gauge or expensive gauge… makes no different if the user lacks the skill to use it.
Bore gauges are pretty straight forward, but you need to get a deal for setting and reading them. Because of your current skill level, an expensive gauge doesn’t make sense, because it doesn’t sound like you are going to use it every day for the rest of your working career. As a hobbyist, a cheap gauge should last you a lifetime if you take care of it. |
Several of us answered in this vein several pages ago. I posted links to several inexpensive bore gauge sets.
Undersatdn this...again...please. The main "stalk", anvils and heads of even a $75 bore gauge are not enough different from those in a $500 bore gauge to make a difference except in the most delicate measurements when 0.0001" counts. The differences in the dial bore gauge head is mainly design/shape, surface smoothness and hardness.
The real expensive part that makes one gauge twice as expensive and twice as accurate as another.....is the dial gauge itself. I already know you understand this concept from the discussion.
Just buy a cheap dial bore gauge set....and with the 0.0005" gauge it comes with you be able to do basic engine builds.
Later, when and if you decide you are building something whose +/- tolerances are tighter than 0.0005"....you can simply buy another dial indicator ...even a cheap one...whose tolerances are 0.0001".
You can convert those tolerances to metric if you need to....but here they are again.
This very gauge in the same red box can be found across numerous "brands" they are all made in the same factory in China. And....they work just fine right out of the box. You can find them in metric as well. And you can find them for $20 less any day of the week.
https://www.amazon.com/Accusize-Tools-Measuring-Graduation-EE20-1406/dp/B01HQRKQ58
Here is the other one with "Fowler" branding. It is in fact the EXACT same gauge made in the same factory as the gauge in the link above only with gray instead of red plastic.
https://www.amazon.com/Fowler-72-646-300-Cylinder-...NrPXRydWU=
See this:
The Accugauge brand is on the left and fowler is on the right. They are the exact same dial bore gauge set with very slight differences in packaging and gauge brand all made in the same Chinese factory.
The contents of each box: and look carefully at shape and build details. These are all the same parts.
And both come with a basic 0.0005" gauge. Either will work just fine for you. If they are not accurate enough for what you are building just buy a better dial indicator. Ray
Last edited by raygreenwood on Mon May 22, 2023 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| modok wrote: |
| If you look at that website I posted with the dial indicators I think they will also sell bore gauge sets. It is hard to navigate, but as I also said before look in the catalog of your chosen brand to find the part number of what you want and then you should be able to find it by searching the part number. |
I have three or four options, just waiting for an answer if a used bore gauge, sans gauge, be useable or not.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Erik G wrote: |
| Y'all play nice. The guy is autistic and going through the learning process. No need to be a shit head (some of you or ALWAYS shit heads, you really don't have to answer, just back space and move on to a new thread) |
Thank you, was wondering if misreading.
| Erik G wrote: |
| Adriel - Maybe it would be helpful to note this in your signature. You're really smart about a lot of stuff, so most people likely have no idea your struggles to make this all make sense and be right |
I never thought of that, great idea.  You think enough folks here understand Autism to be useful? 
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Adrial said:
| Quote: |
| Ray, long ago the conversation moved from micrometers to bore gauges, as now thanks to a generous forum member, have a set. |
Yes I know that. The point...as I stated...is that I was using micrometers as a comparison making a general quality statement about two different tool lines.
The quality, shape and concepts are similar across tool types within each manufacturers catalog.
| Quote: |
| As for China, I have a strong preference for not purchasing from them because of human exploitation and persecution. |
True and I agree, however do not let that guide you too strongly. You can bet that in all but the most expensive precision tools (and even in some of those)...there will probably be Chinese materials or specific sub assembly parts even if the tool says made in Switzerland or Germany.
If you are shopping for tools that have no linkage to China, you will either buy something that you were lied to about or have very few choices....or even fewer affordable choices.
| Quote: |
Again, any reason to go this precise with an engine build? |
YES! I do not care what anyone says here. I do not care how many thousands of engines they may have built. Precision measurement is precision measurement.
The rule is if you want "X" tolerance you need a gauge with 2X the precision or you will never know if you are tight or loose.
Example: If you are measuring something like a rod bore and your tolerances are measured in the 0.001" range....you need a gauge that has increments that are 1/2 that in accuracy...meaning 0.0005".
Using a gauge that has increments of only 0.001"....reading with the needle in between two marks is no guarantee of being 1/2 thousandth by any means.
This is why most cheap dial bore gauges come with only a 0.0005" dial indicator, They are really for measuring bores whose tolerances are +/- 0.001".
further,,,,If what you are measuring will have tolerances written like 0.0015"...in order to read that 0.0005" with any accuracy, you need a gauge that repeats to increments of 0.0001".
And...likewise I have seen a few special dial indicators that read 0.00025". They are quite expensive.
Like the Starrett 656 series:
https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-656-224J-INDICATOR-025-00025/dp/B000VDVQRC
Why would you want one like that and not just a 0.0005" or a 0.0001" gauge? Because its a tradeoff between having enough precision to read measurements with higher tolerances than just 0.001"....and having a longer travel/reach of the gauge.
Modok said and Adrial quoted and said:
| Quote: |
modok wrote:
Something like 90% of all the new stuff we are discussing are all made in china right now.
in case you didn't know.
I say less then 50 percent: Fowler is either depending on if going with age (still up in the air), SPI is Asia, China, and Europe, and Mitutoyo is Japanese.
If used is fully eliminated, then about 50 percent since eliminates American Fowler bore gauge. |
Actually what modok said is probably closer to the truth. Not many precision tools of any type are FULLY built in the country whose origin they claim.
If thats the worry, I would say a higher percentage of Japanese tools are either fully built in Japan or have the highest percentage of domestic parts + assembly than for instance...the European. Germany for instance has been fighting the "made in Germany" vs "product of Germany" legal definition for years.
Under that legal framework You can have tools whose components are almost fully manufactured outside of Germany and only assembly is done in Germany....and they still may have a deceiving "product of Germany" label.
Vanapplebomb said:
| Quote: |
A 75$ tool will last for thousands of measurements… no idea why you are concerned about it only potentially lasting one engine build.
It has become clear that you are not familiar with measuring equipment. As such, you need to learn what you are doing. A cheap gauge or expensive gauge… makes no different if the user lacks the skill to use it.
Bore gauges are pretty straight forward, but you need to get a deal for setting and reading them. Because of your current skill level, an expensive gauge doesn’t make sense, because it doesn’t sound like you are going to use it every day for the rest of your working career. As a hobbyist, a cheap gauge should last you a lifetime if you take care of it. |
Several of us answered in this vein several pages ago. I posted links to several inexpensive bore gauge sets.
Undersatdn this...again...please. The main "stalk", anvils and heads of even a $75 bore gauge are not enough different from those in a $500 bore gauge to make a difference except in the most delicate measurements when 0.0001" counts. The differences in the dial bore gauge head is mainly design/shape, surface smoothness and hardness.
The real expensive part that makes one gauge twice as expensive and twice as accurate as another.....is the dial gauge itself. I already know you understand this concept from the discussion.
Just buy a cheap dial bore gauge set....and with the 0.0005" gauge it comes with you be able to do basic engine builds.
Later, when and if you decide you are building something whose +/- tolerances are tighter than 0.0005"....you can simply buy another dial indicator ...even a cheap one...whose tolerances are 0.0001".
You can convert those tolerances to metric if you need to....but here they are again.
This very gauge in the same red box can be found across numerous "brands" they are all made in the same factory in China. And....they work just fine right out of the box. You can find them in metric as well. And you can find them for $20 less any day of the week.
https://www.amazon.com/Accusize-Tools-Measuring-Graduation-EE20-1406/dp/B01HQRKQ58
Here is the other one with "Fowler" branding. It is in fact the EXACT same gauge made in the same factory as the gauge in the link above only with gray instead of red plastic.
https://www.amazon.com/Fowler-72-646-300-Cylinder-...NrPXRydWU=
See this:
The Accugauge brand is on the left and fowler is on the right. They are the exact same dial bore gauge set with very slight differences in packaging and gauge brand all made in the same Chinese factory.
The contents of each box: and look carefully at shape and build details. These are all the same parts.
And both come with a basic 0.0005" gauge. Either will work just fine for you. If they are not accurate enough for what you are building just buy a better dial indicator. Ray |
Ray, thank you for clarifying. So to confirm, you are saying a used bore gauge, ignoring the indicator, should not be purchased?
As for China, was taking it literally, as "made in" requires most of the parts to made in the country of origin (IIRC greater then 90 percent, 100 percent in California), whereas "assembled in" does not (could be all Chinese and assembled in USA, Germany, etcetera).
I somehow missed the two kits are the same, wow. So if true used is to be avoided, is this a good enough range for engine building?
https://www.amazon.com/AccusizeTools-50-160-0-01-Length-EG20-0160/dp/B01AV1XY46?th=1
Or is used a good and viable plan?
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13281
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
I never thought of that, great idea. You think enough folks here understand Autism to be useful? |
It won't hurt, most people are kind (maybe a little grumpy) and may just be on the spectrum some themselves  I know when people post their location is in a remote non-english speaking location, people generally go easier on them with language barrier issues, parts availability, etc.
I wish you well on your engine building journey - I'm sure it will come out great |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Erik G wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
I never thought of that, great idea. You think enough folks here understand Autism to be useful? |
It won't hurt, most people are kind (maybe a little grumpy) and may just be on the spectrum some themselves I know when people post their location is in a remote non-english speaking location, people generally go easier on them with language barrier issues, parts availability, etc. |
Done, feedback welcome.
IMHO, this is one of the most accepting and kind forums I am a member of.
| Erik G wrote: |
| I wish you well on your engine building journey - I'm sure it will come out great |
Thank you Erik.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13281
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks. |
Perfect! |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
I have three or four options, just waiting for an answer if a used bore gauge, sans gauge, be useable or not. |
The answer is it may, or it may not. You have no way of knowing.
Sometimes with age, the mechanism that translates the movement of the anvil to the movement of the gauge gets worn and notchy from repetitive measurements. For example, one used in a production environment measuring the same parts over and over may respond oddly around that point, no mater what indicator is on it. No fault of the indicator… just a function of the internal mechanism where the head meets the handle.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Bug53
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021
Posts: 704
Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
What about Fowler, any good?
Thanks in advance. |
Nothing at all wrong with Fowler.
Buy it new and take care of it.
It will last forever.
Mitutoyo too.
_________________
Never blame lazy people, they didn't do anything. |
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9481
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2023 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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Adriel - how old are you kid?
Do not mind the grumpy ones here -me included. They just get more hornery as they older. Many are sexually frustrated to the point of aggression. 
The boregauges Ray posted are very good and you will be happy w/ them. I use the one on the right -Fowler- most exclusively for my lineboring and things. YOu should not need anymore precision than that. For engine building - having precision tools will be nice so you can check tolerances so you are not blind-sided when sending your machine work out. Rods and mains saddles are what you will need to confirm in tolerance - the life of the motor depend on these.
Few times, even new parts can be out-of-tolerance. Especially rods' big ends. And linebore jobs. For clearances - Plasti-gages are useful if you do not have bore gauges and mics.
I find it amusing that so many over the years got interested in machining. When I was posting machine work many years ago, many of the same people here think I was crazy for going overboard. Now, every Dick and Sally got a mill or lathe all over the place.
Post some pics of what you are doing - |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2023 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| nsracing wrote: |
| Adriel - how old are you kid? |
I am not a goat.   (Oma taught us not to use "kids" for children...)
Be 37 in December, no clue how it happened. Feels like over half my life is lived. Been working so hard ended up being at this age and single. Though maybe at 20 was too immature, including my understanding the reason for partner, to be in a relationship.
| nsracing wrote: |
| Do not mind the grumpy ones here -me included. They just get more hornery as they older. Many are sexually frustrated to the point of aggression. |
Helps I am a virgin, don't know how good sexual intercourse feels. (Best way to avoid children. ) Though might be on something, know from experience low testosterone causes irritability. Research by the American Urological Association has shown the FDA minimum as too high: https://auanet.mediaroom.com/2018-04-10-AUA-Releas...Deficiency.
| nsracing wrote: |
| The boregauges Ray posted are very good and you will be happy w/ them. I use the one on the right -Fowler- most exclusively for my lineboring and things. YOu should not need anymore precision than that. For engine building - having precision tools will be nice so you can check tolerances so you are not blind-sided when sending your machine work out. Rods and mains saddles are what you will need to confirm in tolerance - the life of the motor depend on these. |
Based on the one response and no other responses, bought this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01AV1XY46?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details.
| nsracing wrote: |
| Few times, even new parts can be out-of-tolerance. Especially rods' big ends. And linebore jobs. For clearances - Plasti-gages are useful if you do not have bore gauges and mics. |
That is what I used the first time, however, they do not catch out of round and a set of bearings was trashed. I now know if you don't want situations, have to have a bore gauge to check everything is a go.
Now say this, maybe put the bore gauge in the tool loan section.
| nsracing wrote: |
| I find it amusing that so many over the years got interested in machining. When I was posting machine work many years ago, many of the same people here think I was crazy for going overboard. Now, every Dick and Sally got a mill or lathe all over the place. |
Well I am going to stick to my dear friend's advice and not any more hobbies, he was stunned at the number. Now thinned to art (mostly watercolor), carpentry, enjoying and playing music (have a little collection of LPs and a decent HiFi, plus a Hammond M100 and a spinet piano, both need work), photography, plus sewing, tailoring, and upholstery.
| nsracing wrote: |
| Post some pics of what you are doing - |
Most of the time I had been waiting, gave up yesterday, been spent removing the finish off of Oma's chair, removed the fabric and padding while in this discussion. It has been a bitter fight, in part the citrus based stripper just is not as good as the nasty chemical, now only available to professionals because of some young idiots using it in inclosed spaces. Plus, this stripper is a gel and got imbedded into all the carving, spent two solid days with a pick, pass key, pocket knife, and 120 sand paper. Eventually got a woodworking forum to suggest the professional stripper and a brass brush. Well, dug through Dad's stash of chemicals, so happened he had a vintage can of paint brush cleaner with this chemical in it, not only removed the last indications of citrus stripper, more importantly removed the finish from all the carvings and other crevices. Now another reason to register my upcoming upholstery business, can use it to get the professional stripper, if ever have a client requesting a full restoration. Yes, work outside, accidentally got a little touch of pink after three hours, have Slavic skin (have Pomeranian ancestry, who are Western Slavic). Let the solvent flash off today and maybe tomorrow before moving to gluing one loose joint, filler, and finish (tung oil, then at least a week later shellac for color, going to mix my own to get the color desired).
By the way, this chair is the only splurge purchase Oma made (there is a story though feel said too much), had expensive upholstery with a metallic gold colored thread. It is also the chair she pile herself and us three grandchildren into for a bedtime story (she get in, I sit next to her, brother on her lap, baby sister on my lap). Oh and really conferable, more so once has squishy foam, my Service Dog's favorite chair. Once done, it will then be used to showcase my upholstery ability as my first project , another layer or two of meaning.
Then last two afternoons knocking together a couple microwave heat pads (use millet) for a friend, her mother's design, and my friend's fabric. Think says something about me pattern matching the flap and having fun with it.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| nsracing wrote: |
Few times, even new parts can be out-of-tolerance. Especially rods' big ends. And linebore jobs. For clearances - Plasti-gages are useful if you do not have bore gauges and mics.
I find it amusing that so many over the years got interested in machining. When I was posting machine work many years ago, many of the same people here think I was crazy for going overboard. Now, every Dick and Sally got a mill or lathe all over the place.
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I am one of those Dick and Sally’ who got a mill and lathe. I had enough of all the crap work/parts out there, and knew I could do it better myself. Took the plunge a couple years ago and got my own machine tools and measuring equipment. Now for 80% of the work, I don’t have to depend on anyone else, and hope their work is right and what I wanted. Seems like the last few years, EVERYTHING has gone to $h!t, and nothing can be taken at face value anymore.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| nsracing wrote: |
Few times, even new parts can be out-of-tolerance. Especially rods' big ends. And linebore jobs. For clearances - Plasti-gages are useful if you do not have bore gauges and mics.
I find it amusing that so many over the years got interested in machining. When I was posting machine work many years ago, many of the same people here think I was crazy for going overboard. Now, every Dick and Sally got a mill or lathe all over the place.
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I am one of those Dick and Sally’ who got a mill and lathe. I had enough of all the crap work/parts out there, and knew I could do it better myself. Took the plunge a couple years ago and got my own machine tools and measuring equipment. Now for 80% of the work, I don’t have to depend on anyone else, and hope their work is right and what I wanted. Seems like the last few years, EVERYTHING has gone to $h!t, and nothing can be taken at face value anymore. |
Though get the vibe the local shop, which did not do the case work, just heads, come out to specification. He seems to have no interest passing along the shop, being in his 40s got plenty of time for life to change, for example, my own land where can set up all that heavy equipment. First thing on the list be a better welder, the current one is okay, just has five power settings (had thought about experimenting with reducing the incoming voltage with an outlet box and dimmer switch).
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Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Adriel Rowley
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Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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I asked at least twice about the set being sufficient and since folks care, would have answered if they knew. Find odd the Volkswagen literature does not include it (1-3 only), did look plus searched the forum and the internet before purchasing. Heck, the blue Bentley does not include instructions how to rebuild an engine.
Anyone know if anvils are universal or stuck using Plastiguage?
One through three are 54.95mm, therefore, puzzled by the journal measurements, re-set the micrometer and used for both setting the bore gauge and measuring the journals. Wondering if it is the Chinese gauge, face isn't accurate. Was hoping to use it to set the end play, however, if at fault...
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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First things first. Be VERY SPECIFIC. 
What exactly are you showing here? Are these images of the micrometer showing the diameter of the main journals on the crank????? Or, are these the measurements of the bearing ID transfered from your bore gauge when the case halves are torqued???
It makes a huge difference which measurement we are looking at here. Those numbers are meaningless unless you tell us exactly what they are.
Tell us the following:
Crankshaft main journal OD)
#1:
#2:
#3:
#4:
Main bearing OD)
#1:
#2:
#3:
#4:
Case main bores with case halves torqued)
#1:
#2:
#3:
#4:
Main bearing ID installed in case with case halves torqued)
#1:
#2:
#3:
#4:
Measuring in a couple places to make sure you are not out of round is also a good idea.
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
Anyone know if anvils are universal or stuck using Plastiguage?
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Which anvils? Micrometer or bore gauge? Typically they are specific to the tool, but some micrometers have interchangeable anvils different shaped for measuring things like tubing wall thickness, etc. none of that should impact you though. You are just measuring point to point OD and ID. You don’t need anything fancy like that.
Also, you keep mentioning plastigauge… you need to realize that there is ONLY ONE main journal/bearing you can use plastigauge to measure. It does nothing for the other three. The center large main with the split bearing is the only one you can do this with.
Yes, you can use that ONE journal to double check your work and make sure you are not wildly off with that particular measurement. Good plastigauge seems consistent to about 0.0005”… which is actually darn good… at least that is my luck with plastigauge. If you see more than 0.001” difference between your measurements and plastigauge on that bearing, go back and check your measurements.
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
One through three are 54.95mm, therefore, puzzled by the journal measurements, re-set the micrometer and used for both setting the bore gauge and measuring the journals. Wondering if it is the Chinese gauge, face isn't accurate. Was hoping to use it to set the end play, however, if at fault...
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It is easy to test the dial accuracy for yourself. Set the bore gauge to the micrometer. Verify repeatability (very operator dependent). Now, move the micrometer say, 0.1mm. Measure with the bore gauge. The dial should read 0.1mm. What really matters is that it is repeatable. If it lands in the same spot each time you measure a bore, then you can always transfer that to a micrometer.
If I read you right, you are measuring the crank here? If so, then…..
Your main journals measuring at 54.97mm are within the 54.97 - 54.99 mm spec. The one at 55.00mm is a little on the big side, and I doubt it is actually that big. Either operator error, or a spec of dust on the anvil. Measure in multiple orientations and confirm.
You did not measure the small main correctly. It should be 39.98 - 40 mm. The 40.66 mm you measured isn’t even in the ball park. Definitely operator error on that one. Go back and check it out again.
You may want to clean your micrometer anvils off. Grab a sheet of normal printer paper and gently close the anvils on it, as though you are measuring it. Once the anvils are closed down on it, pull the piece of paper out from between the anvils. That’s how I always clean mine, and it works really well.
If you were not showing crank measurements, please clarify.
Again, this would be helpful… copy and paste it into your reply, and add your measurements.
Crankshaft main journal OD)
#1:
#2:
#3:
#4:
Main bearing OD)
#1:
#2:
#3:
#4:
Case main bores with case halves torqued)
#1:
#2:
#3:
#4:
Main bearing ID installed in case with case halves torqued)
#1:
#2:
#3:
#4:
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021
Last edited by Vanapplebomb on Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:00 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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Also, tell us how you are using the micrometer and gauge, and taking measurements. If you are not using it correctly, perhaps we can help you straighten that out as well.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Measuring Tool Brands |
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I will be back with the required measurements, except number four due to misinformation being provided, so do not have a 40mm anvil, clearly why asked if a separate set was available.
As for the over 40mm measurement, also puzzled, though despite the micrometer being new, missing the gauge block so unable to set the accuracy. Does not matter until have a 40mm anvil.
And yes, I clean before measuring, who doesn't as so obvious.
Off to have a quick breakfast.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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