Replaced front body mounts and doors no longer close.

[Rickf1985]

Ok body gurus I need some help. I have done my fair share of bodywork but when it comes to the dynamics of VW bodies I am at a loss. I have seen the writeups on bracing the body for heater channel replacement so I have some idea of what I may be looking at. Here is the backstory. I bought this 1970 beetle sedan at a really good price, I saw the entire floor pan had been replaced along with the front supports that hold the pedals. All new front end stuff, tie rod ends, brake lines, shocks and a new axle beam. No evidence of any major accident. body has not been repaired much other than some patches applied over rust by a second short term owner just to flip car. I heard some strange metal movement noises from up front when driving and found there were no rubbers between the body and axle beam, just a couple metal shims made from a cut in half washer on one side. Other side was bolted but not touching anything. So I got the 10mm beam to body bushings and the body to bolt washer/support bushings and installed them after a fun day of removing beam bolts and sneaking bushings in. Bolted them down and reassembled everything and then noticed that both doors are quite low in the back. So putting upward pressure on the front through the bushings apparently bent the middle down. But why and what can I do about it. Heater channels have not been replaced on this car.

Just to add I got the old axle beam with the car and it appears that the old one rusted out the left side tower and someone tried to replace just the tower at some point. I will get some pics of it, it is interesting to say the least.

[67ctbug]

Check the rear body mounts if they have their bushings. You'll probably end up having to make your own rubber mounts of the correct thicknesses. VW service manuals show shimming all of the mounts individually to get the doors to close properly.
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'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
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'72 Dodge Wrecker
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[clockworkbox]

I know that the rear body mounts affect the door openings but I'm not sure about the front. Check out this VW Booklet, it has instructions on how to adjust door gaps, maybe it can help you figure it out.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/looklisten_9.php
_________________
'69 Beetle (pieces)
Learning the hard way is still learning...

[Rickf1985]

[bomberbob]

Both the rubber bushings in the front, and rear work together to help you align the doors. There was a Hot VWs article somewhere that I think showed how to make these adjustments, but I am not sure if its still available on the internet. I believe what happens is the firewall is the fulcrum. Thinner bushings up front pull the front down, which raises the area where the door hinges are attached. Essentially raising drooping doors. Some people get their body adjusted to get proper opening and closing doors, measure the thickness required, then make metal shims so its solid. Sounds like your previous owner tried to do this while cutting corners.
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1968 Beetle (storage)
1990 Jetta GLI megasquirted, burning E85 (currently in heavy maintenance)
2004 Jetta turbo GLI
Marion, Iowa

[Rickf1985]

Looks like I will be pulling the gas tank and front axle beam again. Probably a few more times. The metal shims do not sound like a good idea though. Metal on metal between the body and front axle beam is going to make a lot of noise

[67ctbug]

You don't need to pull the beam, just loosen all of the body bolts.
_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016

[esde]

I've been down this road a few times lately. Often, you will find the need to make your own bushings, as the "factory" thickness no longer works for the body 60 some years later. For your car, could you make a thinner rubber bushing? Maybe 1/8" would do it? As you figured out, pulling the front of the car down, will lean the A pillar toward the front of the car. Lifting it leans the pillar back, and sags the door.
This is why I like to have the body bolted down before welding in heater channels.
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[Rickf1985]

Unfortunately I do not have a lift and getting down on the floor is bad enough but getting back up is brutal so I am trying to do this with as few repetitions as possible. I am going to get the car up on ramps so the weight is on the tires as it normally would be and then look at all of the bushings front and back and see what he did under there. This probably has a lot to do with why my header seems to be way to tight up in the body compared to the car the engine came out of. The rear bushings are probably not right either. My "great deal" car is getting less great by the moment! LOL. I know I have to put heater channels in it but the ones in there are not rotted to the point that the car is compromised so I wanted to drive it for the summer and do that job over the winter. But like you said, the body needs to be straight before starting that job. I have seen somewhere the exact measurements for the frame that gets welded to the body but I don't remember where I saw that.

[clockworkbox]

See the linked post below. It has a drawing with body dimensions.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=778255
_________________
'69 Beetle (pieces)
Learning the hard way is still learning...

[Rickf1985]

Ok, so today I pulled it apart again and dropped the front beam and put thin rubbers under the body. It helped on the drivers side, the passengers side is still an issue. I did see something that worries me though and I am hoping someone can send me some pics or advice. As I mentioned before the previous owner replaced the floor pans and the front crossmember and from what I can tell it appears that the front head was replaced as well as the firewall. Now, from what I am seeing all of this stuff was welded together. So how is the body separated from the pan if this is all welded together? Where is the body supposed to separate from the pan? I planned on taking some pics before putting the gas tank back in but totally forgot.

[Mike Fisher]

There are about 12 bolts on each side holding the body to the pan.
It will probably be stuck together somewhat from the glued on perimeter seal.
Put it up on 3 Ton jack stands, so you can get to the bolts.
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'68 Karmann Ghia sold

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[Rickf1985]

Thanks Mike, But before I think about that I need to know if they welded the body to the floor pan! I don't want to get all the bolts out and find out I am bending the hell out of something that was welded and now nothing will fit back together. I am thinking the join spot is the top of the front crossmember but that has been welded to the firewall. And if that is the case that is definitely going to affect my changing of shims to adjust door gaps. Basically changing the front shims will do nothing at all if the body is welded to the pan at the firewall.

[esde]

Rick, post up some pics, even if you need to hold the phone down under the car.
Even if the car IS welded to the pan, the front mounts (on top of the beam) will have some effect on the A pillar angle and door gap.
Where in NJ are you?
_________________
modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[Rickf1985]

[Rickf1985]

Ok, I got some pics and now I am even more worried/confused than I was before!! This was the first time I really got a good look at the inside, amazing!!! Why would you go to all the trouble to do the floors and front head and then botch up the rest of it like this? So can anybody tell me what I am looking at? It appears to me that I have a mix and not match of panels here. The pics from underneath are about the best I could get with the droplight in there. I need to charge my little light. The underneath drivers side is a wash for the most part because of all the stuff in the way. I think I see the passenger side door problem, nothing under the pillar!!! Let me know what you guys see and what you think I should do about it. Keep in mind I have no plans to pull the body off at this time, I am going to drive it for the summer and I will deal with that come fall. But I need to know what I am up against. I have a Super body off on a trailer out back but that does not help me since it is totally different. And my other complete beetle is a super.

[clockworkbox]

Forgot to show pics?
_________________
'69 Beetle (pieces)
Learning the hard way is still learning...

[Rickf1985]

They are there now, DOH!

[clockworkbox]

Take them back! I bought a '66 that was botched up like that, when I got it apart and realized how bad it was I knew it was beyond my abilities. There is a lot of work there to get things straight. My '69 had a spot where they bridged a 3 inch gap in that area with foil tape and bondo...it got worse from there and I ended up buying a relatively complete body shell instead of trying to sort out the mess. I expect you will find more nasty surprises the further you get into it. It does look like the body might be riveted to the pan if not welded. I feel your pain.
_________________
'69 Beetle (pieces)
Learning the hard way is still learning...

[Rickf1985]

I am trying to figure out what the bodywork is that was cut right above the center channel. I do not see any pieces that even resemble that. I am got to go out and fight the ticks in the back yard to look at the Super body and see if they did not use parts from a super. Fixing it is not hard really. You simply cut out all the parts that do not belong and replace them with new replacement parts. This is not something I really want to do but it is not hard. I would just like to know what I have there now so I have a plan going forward.