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mk1978
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2022
Posts: 71
Location: Olympia, Wa
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 Posted: Fri May 19, 2023 2:25 pm Post subject: Turn signal issues |
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Howdy folks,
I'm just about to get my '77 Standard out on the road & now going over some electrical stuff.
The ignition switch was bad & turn signals & wipers were not working, I replace the switch & in doing so noticed the old signal switch had a broken piece inside so I replaced that too.
Once everything was together the car starts fine with the key (wasn't before) & the turn signals do work but in "hyper speed".
First thing I checked were all the bulbs. Since some of the bulb connectors looked crusty I cleaned everything up & used electrical cleaner too (DeOxit).
All the bulbs are good now & matching. Ended up with same "hyper speed" issue.
So next I checked the grounds, 2 up front & 2 in the back (are there more?). These were all crusty so I used abrasive paper/scrapers/DeOxit to get everything cleaned up....the same "Hyper speed" issue is happening.
What am I missing here?
I know that there's supposed to be a certain gap between steering wheel hub/column which is adjustable, manual says if this is off switches won't work but would that lead to the current issue?
Btw the fuse box is super clean, I tossed all the old fuses, cleaned everything up, installed new fuses.
Any thoughts on this would be great, in the meantime I guess it's safer to have "hyper speed" signals than none at all...but obviously I want them to work correctly.
thanks,
Mk
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1977 Beetle ('72 engine) |
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mk1978
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2022
Posts: 71
Location: Olympia, Wa
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2023 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal issues |
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I realized I forgot a piece of information here, if I use the Hazard switch all 4 corners work perfectly at normal speed.
thanks,
Mk
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2023 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal issues |
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Three questions:
1) What type of flasher relay do you have installed? Make/model/# of prongs?
2) Describe how you have the flasher relay connected?
3) What is the wattage of the corner turn signal lamps you have installed? Stock was 12v/21W bulbs in each corner. The stock flasher relay expects a min load from 21W x2 (42W per side) to operate normally. Less than this and it will quick flash to indicate one of the bulbs may be blown. Extra load when the E-Flashers are on (21W x4) is fine and the flasher relay will still flash normally. Since the E-Flasher (4-way) load gets the flasher to pulse normally it suggests the load of just the left or right side corner lamps is below the 42W expected by the flasher relay.
Have you installed LED turn signal lamps? LED bulbs are just as bright as the normal 21W incandescent bulbs but actually only draw around 2W resulting in too little load on the flasher relay. The relay thinks one of the corner lamps is blown and will quick flash. A fix for this is to install an LED compatible flasher relay which will flash normally with less load than stock. But these may not operate properly if you replace all 4 corners with LED bulbs.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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mk1978
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2022
Posts: 71
Location: Olympia, Wa
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2023 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal issues |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
Three questions:
1) What type of flasher relay do you have installed? Make/model/# of prongs?
2) Describe how you have the flasher relay connected?
3) What is the wattage of the corner turn signal lamps you have installed? Stock was 12v/21W bulbs in each corner. The stock flasher relay expects a min load from 21W x2 (42W per side) to operate normally. Less than this and it will quick flash to indicate one of the bulbs may be blown. Extra load when the E-Flashers are on (21W x4) is fine and the flasher relay will still flash normally. Since the E-Flasher (4-way) load gets the flasher to pulse normally it suggests the load of just the left or right side corner lamps is below the 42W expected by the flasher relay.
Have you installed LED turn signal lamps? LED bulbs are just as bright as the normal 21W incandescent bulbs but actually only draw around 2W resulting in too little load on the flasher relay. The relay thinks one of the corner lamps is blown and will quick flash. A fix for this is to install an LED compatible flasher relay which will flash normally with less load than stock. But these may not operate properly if you replace all 4 corners with LED bulbs.
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Ok so the bulbs are not LED.
Tomorrow I'm gonna just replace all the signal bulbs with brand new ones that just showed up from JBugs , that way I'll know they're all the correct ones.
The relay...is it one of these? I've never messed with a turn signal relay so not sure on location but it seems likely to be one of those two.
Thanks
Mk
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 2:21 am Post subject: Re: Turn signal issues |
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That black relay looks like it is the stock flasher relay. Pull it out and note the orientation. Normally, I’d expect you should see the white stencil markings while it is installed. Yours looks like its installed rotate 90deg, but maybe that is normal for your relay.
Once removed, look for the numbers associated with each of the terminals protruding from the bottom of the relay. Look at the colored wires coming in from the bottom of the bridge the relay mounts to. Identify which colored wire connected to which numbered terminal of the relay.
A white wire coming from the E-Flasher switch should connect to the 49 (+) terminal.
A brown ground wire should connect to terminal 31
The 49a terminal should have a blue wire and a blue/red wire wire connected to it.
Let us know what you find.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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mk1978
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2022
Posts: 71
Location: Olympia, Wa
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal issues |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
That black relay looks like it is the stock flasher relay. Pull it out and note the orientation. Normally, I’d expect you should see the white stencil markings while it is installed. Yours looks like its installed rotate 90deg, but maybe that is normal for your relay.
Once removed, look for the numbers associated with each of the terminals protruding from the bottom of the relay. Look at the colored wires coming in from the bottom of the bridge the relay mounts to. Identify which colored wire connected to which numbered terminal of the relay.
A white wire coming from the E-Flasher switch should connect to the 49 (+) terminal.
A brown ground wire should connect to terminal 31
The 49a terminal should have a blue wire and a blue/red wire wire connected to it.
Let us know what you find. |
Ok I pulled the relay & had a look. It is oriented the right way, that's the way the wires on the underside are positioned. It's REALLy hard to see underneath to verify which wire goes where but to the best of my abilities I'm pretty sure the wires are in the right locations.
Also verified that all the bulbs involved are in fact functioning 12V bulbs.
One thing I noticed while checking out the rest of the electrical stuff last night, when I put the headlights on the front corner turn signal bulbs light too...if I engage the turn signal switch they will flash (fast of course). Are these supposed to be lit up with the headlights on?
thanks,
Mk
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal issues |
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| mk1978 wrote: |
| Ok I pulled the relay & had a look. It is oriented the right way, that's the way the wires on the underside are positioned. It's REALLy hard to see underneath to verify which wire goes where but to the best of my abilities I'm pretty sure the wires are in the right locations. |
You can test this functionally checking the wires in the relay bridge. With the relay removed, take a VM and confirm the 49 (+) terminal wire has 12v+ when the key is in the ON/RUN position and unpowered with the key OFF.
Confirm the 31 terminal is a good ground point. Test the resistance between the end of the wire and known good ground point behind the dash.
Apply constant 12v to the 49a wire (bypassing the flasher relay) and confirm all four corner lamps work with the turn signal lever (L/R) but the lamps remain ON and do not flash.
Repeat this test with the ignition switch in he ON/RUN position… manually power the 49a wire and remove power from the wire, simulating the pulsing of the flasher relay. You should see the corners (L or R) light while you apply power and turn OFF when you remove the wire. The turn indicator lamp in the speedometer should light up opposite the corner lamps (when the corners are ON, the indicator will be OFF). This functionally confirms the corners are all working.
| mk1978 wrote: |
| Also verified that all the bulbs involved are in fact functioning 12V bulbs. |
Did you check they are the correct type bulbs? At the front the bulbs should be dual-filament 1157 bulbs supporting both the turn and parking light circuits. At the rear the turn signal should be a single filament 1156 bulb on each side. Mixing up bulbs and sockets can create problems. Make sure the dual-filament bulb have two contacts down in the socket they fit into. The single filament bulbs will have a single contact at the bottom of the socket.
| mk1978 wrote: |
| One thing I noticed while checking out the rest of the electrical stuff last night, when I put the headlights on the front corner turn signal bulbs light too...if I engage the turn signal switch they will flash (fast of course). Are these supposed to be lit up with the headlights on? |
This is not normal. The parking lights and turn signals are separate circuits but they do come together at the front dual-filament bulbs and at the common ground at the rear light assemblies. If the ground at any of the four corners is bad you get strange behaviors.
One way to test if you have a ground problem… remove the light assembly lens and using a jumper wire with alligator clips, ground the metal body of the light assembly to a known good ground point. Check if the lights work differently. If they do you know there is a problem with the ground for the light assembly. Adding a secondary good ground to the light assembly should make no difference.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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mk1978
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2022
Posts: 71
Location: Olympia, Wa
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2023 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal issues |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| mk1978 wrote: |
| Ok I pulled the relay & had a look. It is oriented the right way, that's the way the wires on the underside are positioned. It's REALLy hard to see underneath to verify which wire goes where but to the best of my abilities I'm pretty sure the wires are in the right locations. |
You can test this functionally checking the wires in the relay bridge. With the relay removed, take a VM and confirm the 49 (+) terminal wire has 12v+ when the key is in the ON/RUN position and unpowered with the key OFF.
Confirm the 31 terminal is a good ground point. Test the resistance between the end of the wire and known good ground point behind the dash.
Apply constant 12v to the 49a wire (bypassing the flasher relay) and confirm all four corner lamps work with the turn signal lever (L/R) but the lamps remain ON and do not flash.
Repeat this test with the ignition switch in he ON/RUN position… manually power the 49a wire and remove power from the wire, simulating the pulsing of the flasher relay. You should see the corners (L or R) light while you apply power and turn OFF when you remove the wire. The turn indicator lamp in the speedometer should light up opposite the corner lamps (when the corners are ON, the indicator will be OFF). This functionally confirms the corners are all working.
| mk1978 wrote: |
| Also verified that all the bulbs involved are in fact functioning 12V bulbs. |
Did you check they are the correct type bulbs? At the front the bulbs should be dual-filament 1157 bulbs supporting both the turn and parking light circuits. At the rear the turn signal should be a single filament 1156 bulb on each side. Mixing up bulbs and sockets can create problems. Make sure the dual-filament bulb have two contacts down in the socket they fit into. The single filament bulbs will have a single contact at the bottom of the socket.
| mk1978 wrote: |
| One thing I noticed while checking out the rest of the electrical stuff last night, when I put the headlights on the front corner turn signal bulbs light too...if I engage the turn signal switch they will flash (fast of course). Are these supposed to be lit up with the headlights on? |
This is not normal. The parking lights and turn signals are separate circuits but they do come together at the front dual-filament bulbs and at the common ground at the rear light assemblies. If the ground at any of the four corners is bad you get strange behaviors.
One way to test if you have a ground problem… remove the light assembly lens and using a jumper wire with alligator clips, ground the metal body of the light assembly to a known good ground point. Check if the lights work differently. If they do you know there is a problem with the ground for the light assembly. Adding a secondary good ground to the light assembly should make no difference. |
Ok so a few things.
I tested for power to 49 with key "on"....got 11.22V
Ran a jumper from this wire to the 49a with key on, if I touched the hot wire to 49a I got both corners of each side to go on/stay on as long as the wire was attached. So all 4 corners light up fine.
I checked the dash indicator, it shows a solid "4-hazard" green (both arrows lit), then if I apply power to 49a the arrows both disappear, this happened for both L/R positions. So it never showed an arrow in either direction regardless of switch being set to L or R.
Also after all this I re-checked the hazard switch (which at last check was fine)...now it's blinking at high speed too! All 4 corners light up with switch engaged but in lightning speed just like turn signals.
And yes, all bulbs are correct. I just went ahead and replace all with new ones from JBugs, the correct 12V double filaments up front & 12V single filaments in the back.
What the heck is goin on here?
thanks,
Mk
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mk1978
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Joined: November 25, 2022
Posts: 71
Location: Olympia, Wa
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2023 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal issues |
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And also to add I did check resistance of the brown ground wire & found it to be very very low resistance, .3
Mk
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal issues |
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| mk1978 wrote: |
I tested for power to 49 with key "on"....got 11.22V
Ran a jumper from this wire to the 49a with key on, if I touched the hot wire to 49a I got both corners of each side to go on/stay on as long as the wire was attached. So all 4 corners light up fine. |
Ok, the tests sound good. Lights, wires and switch appear to be working as expected.
| mk1978 wrote: |
| I checked the dash indicator, it shows a solid "4-hazard" green (both arrows lit), then if I apply power to 49a the arrows both disappear, this happened for both L/R positions. So it never showed an arrow in either direction regardless of switch being set to L or R. |
Hmmm, I'm not sure what you are describing here. The Beetle speedometer has a SINGLE indicator lamp at the bottom center of the gauge for the turn signals. This one bulb (with a 2-headed arrow cutout/symbol in the speedometer) lights up when either side turn signals are flashing by either the turn signal switch of the E-Flasher switch.
With the ignition switch ON and the turn signal switch in either the L or R position, and no power to the 49a wire the 2-headed arrow indicator should be ON (it is powered by the ignition switch). When you apply 12v to the 49a wire the corner lamps will turn ON and the speedometer indicator lamp will turn OFF. When using the turn signal switch, the speedometer indicator lamp and the corner lamps should not be ON at the same time. They will alternate being ON in opposite cadence as the flasher relay (or you in this test) applies power to the 49a wire. From your descriptions I take it this is what you witnessed?
| mk1978 wrote: |
Also after all this I re-checked the hazard switch (which at last check was fine)...now it's blinking at high speed too! All 4 corners light up with switch engaged but in lightning speed just like turn signals.
And yes, all bulbs are correct. I just went ahead and replace all with new ones from JBugs, the correct 12V double filaments up front & 12V single filaments in the back. |
Sounds like you have narrowed down your problem to the flasher relay. Head to your FLAPS and pick up an EP35 flasher relay. The brand is not important as they are made by a few different companies.
This is a 3-prong replacement for the stock flasher relay and will have the same terminal numbers and position (check this before buying). From the markings in the above relay you can see this one will work with LEDs (lower wattage bulbs) if that is your case. You can see the stencil in the above pic showing the terminal numbers and position. This model flasher relay is easy to find and should match your old flasher relay.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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mk1978
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2022
Posts: 71
Location: Olympia, Wa
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2023 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal issues |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| mk1978 wrote: |
I tested for power to 49 with key "on"....got 11.22V
Ran a jumper from this wire to the 49a with key on, if I touched the hot wire to 49a I got both corners of each side to go on/stay on as long as the wire was attached. So all 4 corners light up fine. |
Ok, the tests sound good. Lights, wires and switch appear to be working as expected.
| mk1978 wrote: |
| I checked the dash indicator, it shows a solid "4-hazard" green (both arrows lit), then if I apply power to 49a the arrows both disappear, this happened for both L/R positions. So it never showed an arrow in either direction regardless of switch being set to L or R. |
Hmmm, I'm not sure what you are describing here. The Beetle speedometer has a SINGLE indicator lamp at the bottom center of the gauge for the turn signals. This one bulb (with a 2-headed arrow cutout/symbol in the speedometer) lights up when either side turn signals are flashing by either the turn signal switch of the E-Flasher switch.
With the ignition switch ON and the turn signal switch in either the L or R position, and no power to the 49a wire the 2-headed arrow indicator should be ON (it is powered by the ignition switch). When you apply 12v to the 49a wire the corner lamps will turn ON and the speedometer indicator lamp will turn OFF. When using the turn signal switch, the speedometer indicator lamp and the corner lamps should not be ON at the same time. They will alternate being ON in opposite cadence as the flasher relay (or you in this test) applies power to the 49a wire. From your descriptions I take it this is what you witnessed?
| mk1978 wrote: |
Also after all this I re-checked the hazard switch (which at last check was fine)...now it's blinking at high speed too! All 4 corners light up with switch engaged but in lightning speed just like turn signals.
And yes, all bulbs are correct. I just went ahead and replace all with new ones from JBugs, the correct 12V double filaments up front & 12V single filaments in the back. |
Sounds like you have narrowed down your problem to the flasher relay. Head to your FLAPS and pick up an EP35 flasher relay. The brand is not important as they are made by a few different companies.
This is a 3-prong replacement for the stock flasher relay and will have the same terminal numbers and position (check this before buying). From the markings in the above relay you can see this one will work with LEDs (lower wattage bulbs) if that is your case. You can see the stencil in the above pic showing the terminal numbers and position. This model flasher relay is easy to find and should match your old flasher relay. |
Yep you were totally right, went to NAPA & picked up their version of the the EP35, came home, popped it in, the blinkers work 100%!
I guess now the system is in top shape after replacing all the bulbs, cleaning contacts, cleaning up every single ground....things will hopefully be go to go for awhile.
thanks for the assistance,
Mk
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