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Auto to manual swap snag....
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dubbified
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:44 am    Post subject: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Hey!

I need help with a snag I'm hitting. I've converted many VW Rabbits, golfs, Audis.. and love my van.. its just needing to be out of project mode as camping weather is full swing!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've got a 90 multivan that originally had a 2.1wbx with an automatic transmission. I went to TDI while on automatic, using a Kennedy Engineering adapter, put a few tanks through it, ran into scope creep, and got a 6 rib with LSD/locker built by rancho.



In speaking to Kennedy about their plate, they mention it can be reused on a 4 speed, with the purchase of a updated flywheel..

I got all my ducks lined up, per all the conversion threads I've read here (thanks to everyone documenting with pics!) which have been super helpful, and inspiring. Maybe too inspiring. Smile

So, I think I'm in the final throes.. but I am in a jam which I could use some thoughts on..

The input shaft was shortened, and I did take all depth measurements from the transmission mating surface to the protrusion of the input shaft, where it would sit into the pilot bearing.

I used the updated non felt rubber seal pilot bearing.

I carefully shortened the input shaft.

I installed the Kennedy engineering plate onto the block. the KEP plate is studded up so the trans really just slides into place, and secures with locking flange nuts.


The transmission is now buttoned up, used a motiv power bleeder on the brakes and clutch slave last night.

Oddly, going to test the pedal, and clutch for the first time, the clutch pedal is not able to see any travel. A push by hand on the pedal should be sufficient to engage the clutch, and test it.. it wouldn't budge.

The pedal did have free movement before bled. I lightly tested the range of travel after installing the pedal assembly.

Looking at the clutch slave and its rod which engages the throwout lever on the transmission, the mechanism seems to be very far out in its travel, and the lever with the ball is nearly parallel to the ground at the 9-10 oclock position. it seems like the clutch slave is at the end of its travel.

Since I have no reference on where this lever is supposed to sit.. besides when I assembled this, there are keyed grooves the lever sits in, prior to installing the circlip to hold it onto the throwout fork lever..

I'm scratchin my head..

Halps!
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Hello!

take the rod out of the slave cylinder to test just the hydraulics and report back.
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dubbified
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Thanks ALIKA T3!

Yea sure, I can do that and will snap a few pics tonight.


I dont really have a build thread I've been putting any attention to.. but here are some throwback pics.


Right before install, 0 mile build,

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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KEP plate installed. On the automatic setup I had bolts, but with the manual, I installed studs and will be using pinch/locking flange nuts.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What it used to look like when I got it from a Canadian parts dealer, it was from an 01 jetta tdi auto.


In getting in into the shop off my buddies truck, somehow this thing came loose and disaster..

carnage..

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I was awash with grief...
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It was a rough start, but I felt better getting that engine to a zero mile condition, all machine shop services to the block/head, and I did the assembly with some premium products. It is now a 2.0L TDI with some hardware goodies for good measure and a hybrid turbo 1749Vb, fed by an air to water intercooler and a AMSOIL conical filter with a rain bootie from an A-1 Abrams tank so they say. Sounds cool. So far, so good. It sure gets on it with an automatic.. I just wanted the locker, and greater control over gears, this is why I went to do this swap.

Bayside at night, with the shop lights off, LED bay lights on,
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is a pic of the bay with the flash on, I was installing a VDO harness that I built to cover a few bay side gauges on the dash, using a NOCO to backfeed the system power, without being connected to a primary battery.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


From underneath the pass side..
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I had just installed the new Vanlife brackets and the Nilight Amazon sourced
"DEATH RAY" LED bar.. I was just testing it with the NOCO, and its crazy bright.

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dubbified
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Thanks again Alika,

So, I compressed the pushrod into the slave cylinder, and tried to actuate the clutch pedal, and, the actual pedal is seemingly physically locked up, and cannot be compressed, nothing changes.

When I lifted the clutch throwout lever arm, which has a rounded ball head on it, it looks new, is properly affixed to the throw out lever cross shaft with a Circlip.

When lifting, and testing the throwout arm for range, perhaps even rattling it a little lightly, I can get it to go up to the 10:30 oclock position and as I set it down, I can hear the high pitched tink-tink sounds of spring steel where the throwout bearing is engaging those spring fingers of the pressureplate.
Before lifting the trans into place, and mounting it, I did check the throwout bearing and the movement of the lever, and the bearing to be correct.

As installed, at the engagement point, the throw out lever/arm is parallel to the ground, or centerline of the transmission best I can tell.

I am on the fence with next moves per the pedal issue. Arrrgh! I suspect dash removal.. if there's any other way to fix that.. lmk!!!

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4458715

on this thread had Vanagonner comment, and said his pedal assembly came loose, and locked the pedal at the top of the thread.

I do specifically feel a mechanical binding on the pedal, no force will change it, and when the slave cylinder is disengaged from the clutch throw out arm/lever, there is no change on pedal restriction.

Ideas?

The master and booster were upgraded oversized and a pita to install.. got them from smallcar, and best I knew everything was in order, the pedal would move.. maybe I can unbolt the clutch master and retest the pedal?

I hope I'm not needing to do dashwork again.. omg I dont think there's enough weed for that.


Last edited by dubbified on Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

If I understand your setup, on the vanagon bellhousings, the lever with the ball moves down to depress the pressure plate. Look for a piece of tube or a large wrench and ensure you can manually operate the pressure plate.

If you can, then look at the hydraulics. If installed the slave is fully extended, the pedal will feel like it is against the wall.

What sets the slave piston position, is the length of the rod. Supposedly there are two lengths and the distance for the release bearing to contact the pressure plate. Itís possible something is mismatched. Ideally, at rest the throwout bearing rides just off the pressure plate and the slave pushrod is partially extended. This gives you room for clutch wear and full length of travel.

Good luck.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Thanks for the insight here Mark yes, that sounds like some good plans.

The hardline I Just installed new, with new flare ends, and bubbles, and it does bleed correctly with a powerbleeder.

I'll pull the ball/rod end off the slave, and check for clutch movement with a large wrench on the arm, sounds like a good test!

Also, when up in that, I'll take some measurements.
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

dubbified wrote:
Thanks for the insight here Mark yes, that sounds like some good plans.

The hardline I Just installed new, with new flare ends, and bubbles, and it does bleed correctly with a powerbleeder.

I'll pull the ball/rod end off the slave, and check for clutch movement with a large wrench on the arm, sounds like a good test!

Also, when up in that, I'll take some measurements.


I thought you removed the rod already? That was my advice.

You can also open the bleeder and see if the pedal moves. It's possible the pin walked out and is catching somewhere since you feel the pedal is mechanically binding.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Hi Alika,

Thanks!

Yes, I pulled it off the ball head of the clutch arm, disconnecting the rod from the arm, I assured there was no movement per hydraulic action..on further inspection of movement on action surfaces, I can push the throw rod into the slave, so there is good range there.

Pic of that,
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Going back to the pedal today, it seems to be physically bound up somehow, and there's not alot I can see, so I'm taking the trim off, and going to get a camera/light in there.

To investigate, I was considering there are two 13mm bolts that hold the clutch master onto the lower part of the pedal bracket, I'm looking to remove them potentially, and see if there's anything out of order?

Perhaps dropping the MC out of the way could help.. meh.

Open to any suggestions!
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Any chance of uploading pictures to thesamba rather than <SPIT> photobucket? None of them are visible here.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

oh, if you click on the word, it should go there?

I could use a lesson on how to upload here... will find out how in the faq..

So, as an update, I did disconnect the MC from the bracket, and the pedal moves without restriction. manual attempts to push the mc with a 1/4 extension meet solid immovable restriction, feels totally seized.

Hmm. time to bbq and crack a few open.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

ok, had time midday to check out the play on the clutch throwout fork, and the arm movement as suggested!

Here is the picture of what i was looking at:

Click on the link below for a full screen image it will show the arm, with the ball/socket of the slave disconnected, and it seems at the end of its travel.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



To me, the slave looks to be extended in its travel, the boot is not compressed, so, I took a vice grips, and exerted maybe 30lbs of force and the lever would not move.

Does it take more force to engage the clutch/throwout/pressureplate by hand with a 10" vice grips on it?

It does seem there is a range of motion on the throwout arm when it is disconnected from the ball/socket it moves freely.

I did an image search.. and it really does appear my arm is much further down, instead of this picture sitting at the 10 o clock+ position.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1716575.jpg

One thing I haven't done, is to open the bleeder for the slave and retry the MC action.. if it compresses, then it rules out the pedal and the MC and the slave.. would indicate a possible fitment with the throwout arm, bearing, pressureplate/disc and flywheel. hmmmmm.

Any suggestions here?


Last edited by dubbified on Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

dubbified wrote:

Here is the picture of what i was looking at:

Click on the link below for a full screen image it will show the arm, with the ball/socket of the slave disconnected, and it seems at the end of its travel.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Still no picture:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Thanks!

Sorry!

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/2309609.jpg

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


it almost seems I'm facing something similar to this thread,

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=40

Apparently, there is a diesel arm, and a gasoline arm.. they're clocked differently..


There are no markings on this arm.. but here it is for reference.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by dubbified on Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

I went out and opened the bleeder on the slave, confirming that the pedal, and the MC have proper movement.

This seems to verify I have the wrong throwout arm as found in that other TS thread, the takeaway issue seems to be the same.

Now I need to find someone with the correct throwout arm to sell me!

Cash in hand! Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=359910&postorder=desc
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Thanks Alika!

Yes, the first image of that post, seems like I've got the diesel version, and am running a gas bellhousing..

So, either change the arm, or change the bellhousing and reuse my arm.

Is there any benefits to go with a Diesel bellhousing vs a gas?

I "might" be on the phone ordering the FAS kit the second they turn the phones on coming up on the 19th.

I am, strongly considering the fork in this project, considering the work of changing the bellhousing. The FAS cradle kit sees me taking off the bellhousing to replace the input shaft that comes in the kit.. As long as I dont have to change the starter..

oh hell Scope creep.

It would give me more ground clearance, and remove my heavy engine cradle built from like .180 steel 2"x2", also I could ditch the raised lid, and install a toolbox.

Hmm. The weather is nice.. I'm strongly thinking about the next tasks.

Thanks for the help Alika
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

dubbified wrote:
Is there any benefits to go with a Diesel bellhousing vs a gas?


IMO the biggest advantage to the diesel vanagon bell housing is the ability to run the dual-mass flywheel which evens out the power pulses and reduces the wear on the trans.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

yea, Diesel has a bit more kick..

I'd not considered a dual mass setup, I'm curious if there are any suggestions around this..

I do have a zero mile LUK kit from busdepot..

Thanks ?Waldo?!


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ideally I'm considering replacing my engine cradle for the FAS kit.

I do see they include a new input shaft, and I'm a noob with the dual mass flywheel game..(guidance welcome)

If you were in the middle of swapping from auto to manual, what sort of clutch setup would you run with the FAS kit?

The engine is a 2001 jetta ALH 2.0 liter engine (modified from 1.9) 11mm auto pump also using a kermatdi "the boost valve".

Thanks,

Alex
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Ok, I'm gonna put a picture of the arms on top of each other bc this is undocumented, or at least no pictures are easily found.
I'm putting a diesel lever, early version 251141713A on top of a gasser lever , using the same splines. The gasser version is broken but you get the idea. The diesel is actually lower then... Unless I got sold a gasser model and this aircooled transmission had a diesel lever , my picture shows the differences correctly.
The C version for diesel is the same but with extra meat below.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Auto to manual swap snag.... Reply with quote

Thank you! That makes for a good reference!
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