Replacing exhaust manifold gaskets 1987 VW Syncro - tutorial?

[mbruell]

Hey Folks,

I’m going to be replacing the exhaust manifold gaskets on my 1987 Syncro. The rest of the exhaust system appears to be ok.

Have any of you seen a youtube video on this type of job? I haven’t been able to find one.

In addition to the exhaust manifold gaskets, what other parts should I purchase for this job?

Thanks,
M

[markswagen]

have stud extractors and a torch on hand, the studs/bolts that hold the headers to the heads, have been known to snap off, if one does, it'll keep you out of mischief for a while.
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markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.

619 201 0310

[MarkWard]

I have seen exhaust manifold bolts and studs with nuts or a combination. If you are unfamiliar with dealing with rusted, frozen, rounded hardware, I would recommend you not learn on this job. As suggested, this job can go off the rails quick. This might be a job better left for a seasoned VW technician. Break a stud, drill off center, snap off an extractor and a job that a seasoned tech could do quickly may be come a cylinder head that needs to be removed.

If you intend to plug on, look for videos on frozen nuts and bolts. Removing broken studs and bolts by welding, drilling, extracting and inserting. Probably not what you want to hear. Every task I can think of on a syncro is 3x more difficult. Removal if you can unbolt it with no trouble is fairly straightforward. I’d have 4 exhaust manifold gaskets and all the other exhaust gaskets in the system. I’m sure the big 3 suppliers have all you need. Copper high temp silicone comes in handy sealing imperfect flange surfaces. There are a few threads where an owner attempted this job only to have it turn way south quick.
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[dhaavers]

Not a syncro, but my recent visit to this project expanded to almost 3 weeks, between
soaking in penetrating oil, tapping, waiting, soaking, tapping, waiting, wrenching, soaking,
tapping, waiting, heating, breaking, welding (fail…I’m not a welder), drilling, breaking,
drilling, tapping, helicoil-ing, JB Weld-ing, waiting, replacing hardware, wrenching,
snugging & final torque-ing.

Ugh.

Three words for you:
- Copper anti seize
- Brass acorn nuts
- Good F-ing luck

…you’ll need it…

- Dave
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[MsTaboo]

I haven't had to deal with rusted exhaust hardware on the Wasserboxer for many years since doing an engine conversion back in '09, but here are a few tips for any rusted-heat fused nuts and bolts.

First off get a can of PB Blaster and carefully soak the various hardware. Do this several times over a few days (at the very least overnight). Try not to get the stuff all over your exhaust because it will be kinda stinky when it burns off.
Really let it have a chance to soak in.

Next is to use a small stiff steel brush, I like those ones that are about the same size as a toothbrush. You can get them at any decent hardware store, welding supply, or Harbor Freight for the cheapie ones. Use to knock off as much rust as possible before attempting to remove the nuts.

And finally, don't use a power tool. Use quality wrenches and sockets. Break the nut loose and only turn a small ways, then spray some more PB Blaster onto the bolt, retighten the nut part way, and loosen again, repeat.
The trick is to not use brut force but to slowly work the nut off, letting the juice work into the threads and cleaning away the swarf.
I've used this method over the years and have saved many a bolt from breaking.

If you get some really bad ones you can try heat, but of course you'll need to be careful not to burn down your Syncro .

Even if you decide to let a shop do the work it will pay to pre-treat the nuts and bolts so the shop monkeys don't snap off dry bolts and charge you $$ to save the situation.

Good luck!

( edit for spelling, damn spellcheck turned swarf into scarf )
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[dhaavers]

FYI: “brass acorn exhaust nuts“ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714759
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
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[mbruell]

Wow - great info. I’ll keep y’all posted.

Thanks everyone,
M

[hardway]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Waterboxers left the factory with each head having two exhaust studs. The other exhaust flange on that head received two bolts. I always install four exhaust studs per head. If the nuts on the studs do not move easily then stop. I like to expand frozen exhaust nuts by hitting them on a flat with a sharp air chisel. I also walk them off by turning the chisel after the nut is expanded. But waterboxer exhaust studs can only take so much side force. Sometimes I have to cut a slice out of the side of the nut down to the threads to loosen it.

If a bolt breaks and is seized in the head then you in for a world of hurt. If you have to drill out a broken bolt then you had better make a jig to guide the drill or a new head will be in your future. As others have advised, this is not the place to learn these skills. But there is no harm in trying to remove the fasteners unless you do not stop before things go wrong. The most important thing is knowing when to stop before it goes sideways.

Sometimes heat is necessary. Sometimes heat is not enough. But when it comes to penetrating oils I would advise Kroil.

[mbruell]

Well, thanks everyone. It seems this job is too much for me, so I’m looking for a shop to do the work. I took it to the local Midas shop, and the guy there was super helpful and knowledgeable, but in the end said he’d have to drop the engine to do the work (most likely), and certainly have to the drop the engine if the bolts in the heads were to break, and he just wasn’t set up to do that work these days.

I’m thinking of taking it to VanCafe.

Do any of you have thoughts on whether it’s worth it to install/replace most or nearly all of the exhaust system on the old wbx, or whether it's time to consider a subaru conversion, or a tdi?

I probably won’t drive more than 65-70 most of the time anyway, so having more power or acceleration, though nice, isn’t that important. More confidence in the reliability would be nice.

Anyway - it would be good to hear y’all’s thoughts on the pros and cons, and how one might go about making the decision.

Thanks,
Marc

[MarkWard]

Replacing the exhaust is a straightforward job for an experienced tech. If Van Cafe is able to take your van in and do the work, they should have the skills. An engine conversion is an entire new level of money and time.

Worse case, all 8 fasteners snap off at the head. Figure 1/2 hour to drill and repair each one. The other fasteners are through bolted and get discarded. The trick is to snap as few as possible of the exhaust studs/bolts.
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[mbruell]

yeah, the more I read about it, the more that makes sense.

Although the stainless steel exhaust seems like a good idea, from what I’ve read around here, folks are having problems with some of the related fasteners and such. I’m planning to go with the stock replacement.

Hopefully it’ll hold up well enough until I can get it in. The voicemail message indicated they were a month out.

Here’s a photo of the crack in the exhaust pipe. When they had it up on the list at Midas, one could see that the crack went almost 3/4 the way around the pipe. There’s probably an inch or two left.

[dobryan]

Van Cafe is where I’d go vs Midas.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[mbruell]

Thanks. I have appointment for next week, which I’m psyched about. Makes me wonder if there’s anything else I should have them look at.

[mbruell]

Well, my good and talented friend helped me tackle the removal of the exhaust header pipes. I sprayed PB Blaster on the bolts in the morning, and we took a shot about 4 hours later. The plan was to try to loosen each of the 8 bolts connecting the pipes to the heads, and if any of them put up too much of a fight, we’d bail and I’d take my van to VanCafe. As it turned out, all of the bolts came loose reasonably easily. We’re going to be replacing the pipes and collectors up to the catalytic converter. From the cat to the end of the tail pipe is in good shape. Here’s a photo of the removed exhaust header pipes.

Thanks for all the advice and warnings. It took us a little less than 3 hours to remove all parts.

[dobryan]

That is awesome.

Now go out and buy a lottery ticket because you might win that too.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[hardway]

If you don't go, you don't know.

The Dansk (JP) replacement pipes did not fit well decades ago and they seem to fit worse now. Fitting the pipes can be a challenge. It is important that exhaust components fit well. They all need to lie naturally in the right place. If they are installed under tension by forcing them together, they will crack. They may need to be bent, slotted and cut, shaped and welded. The brackets at the rear bottom of the case halves always seem to need clearancing now.

Measure thrice. Cut once.

Have at it.

[MsTaboo]

Good job! Now you have some extra money to spend on other maintenance items .
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec

The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
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[mbruell]

[MsTaboo]

Again, it's been a really long time since I had to wrestle with a Wasserboxer but the trick with any exhaust system is to assemble everything without tightening the hardware.
Once you have all the pieces connected you can start tightening the nuts and bolts, giving the different pieces a jiggle so they settle where they want to be, as Hardway noted you don't want to stress the pipes.
I've used a rat tail file (round) in the past to elongate the holes a bit to allow more movement, being careful not to remove too much metal.
Good luck!
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec

The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine.

[mbruell]