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heimlich  VWNOS.com

Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 7276 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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Heiferman wrote: |
Any update? |
Maybe he got everything running and has been travelling.
That's always a nice thought that when you get everything working you can just take off and enjoy it. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
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Heiferman Samba Member

Joined: February 28, 2024 Posts: 205 Location: Georgia, USA
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Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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Any update? _________________ - 1973 Thing, some LandCruisers and an old Ambulance |
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kecknj13 Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2023 Posts: 16 Location: VA
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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@heimlich Just order the distributor you recommended. Order number is 4697. Appreciate you. |
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kecknj13 Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2023 Posts: 16 Location: VA
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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It will only start at 7° ATDC, runs at about TDC at idle, 22 BTDC at 3k rpm.
Since my last post I've rebuilt the carb. That was a fun first time experience. Car starts and seems to run a little better, but the timing issue is still perplexing.
@heimlich I'm thinking I will take your advice and replace the 009 dizzy, even if it doesn't solve the weird initial timing, at least the motor will be better timed dynamically and get rid of the flat spot.
This was my first time rebuilding a carb, and I got an ultrasonic cleaner to help minimize the effort. Holy heck was it worth it!
Before
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heimlich  VWNOS.com

Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 7276 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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kecknj13 wrote: |
Points gap is at 0.4 mm.
Interesting you mention it should start right up with no pedal. It does exactly that when set to 7° ATDC.
Ok then carb is getting rebuilt soon. First I've got to find a proper bypass screw. The one in mine is plastic.. (?!?!) Every seen that? I'm scrounging the classifieds but no luck yet. Might end up buying one for parts and harvesting it.. |
Does it run when you time it at 7 ATDC? At RPM 1,000 what is the advance? At 3500 what is the advance? _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
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kecknj13 Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2023 Posts: 16 Location: VA
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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Points gap is at 0.4 mm.
Interesting you mention it should start right up with no pedal. It does exactly that when set to 7° ATDC.
Ok then carb is getting rebuilt soon. First I've got to find a proper bypass screw. The one in mine is plastic.. (?!?!) Every seen that? I'm scrounging the classifieds but no luck yet. Might end up buying one for parts and harvesting it.. |
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heimlich  VWNOS.com

Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 7276 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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Usually when I get to that point it's the carburetor.
Where is the gap on the points set?
When you have it timed at 7 degrees and you restart it are you pumping the gas or are you holding the pedal down? You shouldn't need to pump it. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
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kecknj13 Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2023 Posts: 16 Location: VA
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:25 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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heimlich wrote: |
kecknj13 wrote: |
Something else is going on here that's not right.
Pulled the plugs today and they were fouled with dry black soot. More and more evidence seems to point to running rich. Thoughts? |
I've seen that before. Are you using standard plugs? None of that trinium titanium diamond stuff. Just basic copper/etc. |
Yep standard Bosch, wr8ac. New empi premium plug wires as well, and Bosch points, condenser, rotor, and cap. The only thing not touched in the ignition system is the coil, but it tested within spec.
I'm planning on rebuilding the carb this weekend (needs it anyway), then pulling the plugs and cleaning them before I tune the carb and play with the timing again. If that doesn't get me anywhere, I'll probably seek out the local vw shop because I'm basically out of ideas. |
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heimlich  VWNOS.com

Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 7276 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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kecknj13 wrote: |
Something else is going on here that's not right.
Pulled the plugs today and they were fouled with dry black soot. More and more evidence seems to point to running rich. Thoughts? |
I've seen that before. Are you using standard plugs? None of that trinium titanium diamond stuff. Just basic copper/etc. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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Nitramrebrab72 Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2018 Posts: 804 Location: France
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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5 atdc static and 20 btdc@3000 rpm is the same point of explosion in the motion/cycle ie. on the downward side at least 5 degrees minimum but in reality more like 15°+ by the time the spark ignites the mixture and it fully explodes. Way after tdc the only thing stopping it being able to explode before this point of the cycle would have to do with the valves not being fully closed before this point in the cycle. I suggest checking the valves are correctly adjusted both exhaust and intake valves. |
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kecknj13 Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2023 Posts: 16 Location: VA
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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heimlich wrote: |
kecknj13 wrote: |
Yep, pointing to number 1 wire when at TDC. Wires are definitely in the correct fitting order. Also verified tdc for cylinder 1 with the straw test in spark plug hole for cylinder 1. |
Using a straw isn't good enough. You have to look at the valves as well. |
Yes that's true. I had just adjusted the valves and they were both closed for cylinder 1 when the dizzy was pointed to the cylinder 1's plug wire. I then found absolute TDC with the straw test, verified it was at the notch on the crank when the dizzy was pointed to the plug wire for 1.
I'm setting the timing correctly. The engine will only start when set statically at ~-5deg ATDC or dynamically at ~20deg BTDC at 3k rpm. Something else is going on here that's not right.
Pulled the plugs today and they were fouled with dry black soot. More and more evidence seems to point to running rich. Thoughts? |
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heimlich  VWNOS.com

Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 7276 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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kecknj13 wrote: |
Yep, pointing to number 1 wire when at TDC. Wires are definitely in the correct fitting order. Also verified tdc for cylinder 1 with the straw test in spark plug hole for cylinder 1. |
Using a straw isn't good enough. You have to look at the valves as well. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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kecknj13 Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2023 Posts: 16 Location: VA
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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wcfvw69 wrote: |
kecknj13 wrote: |
Thanks for the suggestion. Checked again, plug wires are definitely in the right order. |
With the distributor cap off, put your engine on TDC #1 cylinder. Where is the rotor pointing at in the cap? Is it pointing at where the #1 spark plug wire is in the cap? Are the rest of the wires in the correct firing order 1-4-3-2? |
Yep, pointing to number 1 wire when at TDC. Wires are definitely in the correct fitting order. Also verified tdc for cylinder 1 with the straw test in spark plug hole for cylinder 1. |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist

Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13640 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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kecknj13 wrote: |
Thanks for the suggestion. Checked again, plug wires are definitely in the right order. |
With the distributor cap off, put your engine on TDC #1 cylinder. Where is the rotor pointing at in the cap? Is it pointing at where the #1 spark plug wire is in the cap? Are the rest of the wires in the correct firing order 1-4-3-2? _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
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Nitramrebrab72 Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2018 Posts: 804 Location: France
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 3:35 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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Check this video out. I think it might help. The leads on a 009 distributor should be rotated 90° compared to a standard factory distributor cap .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=787INwvir24 |
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kecknj13 Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2023 Posts: 16 Location: VA
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2023 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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7.5 BTDC would be normal... It will only start and idle at around 5 to 7 ATDC.
Dizzy has been pulled and cleaned, I don't think it's sticking. |
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heimlich  VWNOS.com

Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 7276 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2023 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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kecknj13 wrote: |
Y
When set at 5° ATDC, the Max advance was found to be 20° BTDC, meaning the advance was ~25° between engine off and max advance... within spec for the 009.
At this point, I set the max advance to 32° BTDC. Engine runs fine, idles this way, but when I shut it off, it won't start. I checked the static timing at this point and found it to be at about 7° BTDC. Again, the mechanical advance is 25°
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That sounds close to being right. 7 degrees at idle is usual.
Are you able to clean your distributor? It might be sticking. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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kecknj13 Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2023 Posts: 16 Location: VA
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2023 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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Hmm.. interesting.. my hypothesis was that I need to get the motor to start closer to 7.5° BTDC rather than a distributor with more variation..
Is it safe to start the motor with the initial timing so far retarded? |
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Nitramrebrab72 Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2018 Posts: 804 Location: France
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2023 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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5 Atdc to 20 Btdc= 25° movement
32Btdc-7Btdc=25°
5Atdc to 32 Btdc= 37° movement
Means you need a distributor with at least 37° variation.?? |
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kecknj13 Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2023 Posts: 16 Location: VA
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2023 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issue - will only start at ~5° ATDC |
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You may very well be right, but let me explain why I don't think the current distributor isn't the main issue.
When set at 5° ATDC, the Max advance was found to be 20° BTDC, meaning the advance was ~25° between engine off and max advance... within spec for the 009.
At this point, I set the max advance to 32° BTDC. Engine runs fine, idles this way, but when I shut it off, it won't start. I checked the static timing at this point and found it to be at about 7° BTDC. Again, the mechanical advance is 25°
Even though it has been timed correctly with the second scenario, the engine won't start. Doesn't seem to me to be distributor related, but maybe I am misunderstanding? How can this be? |
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