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Limited slip or locker for VW transaxle
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mbjeeper
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:37 am    Post subject: Limited slip or locker for VW transaxle Reply with quote

I have a '73 181 that is not complete enough or good enough to restore, but I still like it, so I'm going to build it into a sort of Baja with a Thing body.
I will use it off road and I need to find a limited slip or locker for the transaxle.
I know that a rare option on Things was a "ZF" limited slip, but I understand that they are unobtainable and obscenely priced if you find one. This Thing is a budget project.
I have messed with VWs for years, but never serious off road or drag racing.
What options are available to increase the traction in a VW Transaxle?
If these things are raced off road and at dragstips there has to be a way to get better traction. In my ancient Willys jeep I pull the middle lever and have an instant traction aid, but the Thing only has two wheel drive.
Is a "beef a Diff" a traction aid (spool) or is it just a stronger carrier for the ring gear? As a last resort, is there a way to weld the spider gears to get positive traction like in a conventional differential?

Also, how much lift will the stock Thing CV joints take?
Any and al info appreciated!
Thanks,
Greg
'59,'61 sunroofs
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'73 Thing
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thingsandrails
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:20 am    Post subject: traction! Reply with quote

hey there! it has been my past experience that a good bus trans. i money well spent! depending on the engine you plan on building you have basically three options. with the weight of the car a three rib will be best using upto a 1915. if you plan on building bigger a 5 rib is the best and most universal choice.

have fun
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pjmacua
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:37 pm    Post subject: Limited slip or locker for VW transaxle Reply with quote

Hello Greg

Why are you looking for a limited slip differential?

Are you planning to drive often in the mud, in the snow, or in the dunes?

Do you know what are turning brakes?

Regards
Pierre-J MACUA
www.volkswagen181.com
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clearsurf2001
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg and friends,
You're right about the ZF ... unobtainium ... Quaife makes a Torsen (torque sensing) diff - $1295 U.S. for swing axle, $1095 U.S. for IRS. Beef-a-diff (and its clones) add two more spiders into a heavy duty diff housing. Spools are available from numerous sources (good for drag racing but not much else)-BTW-cutting (steering) brakes do not work with a spool. Berg used to offer a "poor man's Posi" (no longer made) which consisted of a spacer and shims mounted between the side gears. Two wheel traction has become expensive!
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mbjeeper
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:59 pm    Post subject: No sand in West Virginia Reply with quote

There is no sand in West Virginia, but there is plenty of mud and rocks. Deep and stickymud and slippery rocks. If my Thing is not to become a laughingstock with the Jeep and pickup folks, I will need traction, and lots of it.
I've had a Baja and a buggy before, and got along OK, but I have intentions on testing the limits of 2 wheel drive with this Thing--not high speed desert type driving, but slow, slogging twisty trail driving.
I am considering a spool, as apparently no other traction aids are available. Will this make the Thing undriveable on pavement? Will it be too hard on stub axles and CVs?
Thanks,
Greg
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clearsurf2001 wrote:
Greg and friends,
You're right about the ZF ... unobtainium ...

Nope, all you have to do is send me an e-mail. I have ZFs for sale for Type 1 and Bus 091. And they are significantly cheaper than Quaife diffs.
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Big Luni
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you need to have reduction gears to put on a ZF differential, or will it work on any 181?
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ZF has nothing to do with the reduction boxes. If you had a swing axle ZF you can run it with or without reduction boxes.
The IRS ZFs I have can fit any IRS Thing. They also fit Beetles, Karmann Ghias and Type 3s
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clearsurf2001
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce ... you have a pm
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EverettB wrote:
Make sure it is coherent. Rodney
mharney wrote:

I think Glenn has an EMPI crank in his engine.
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clearsurf2001
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Una mas (another pm awaits you Bruce)
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EverettB wrote:
Make sure it is coherent. Rodney
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I think Glenn has an EMPI crank in his engine.
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clearsurf2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pm ... Bruce ... again
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EverettB wrote:
Make sure it is coherent. Rodney
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I think Glenn has an EMPI crank in his engine.
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kubelmann
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 73 off road Thing with a 1915 and a Thing trans that I built with all Weddle close ratio electron beam welded gears and all new internal parts I also have a Quaffe lsd diff I live offroad at 9000 ft and rip dual rooster tails with constant two wheel rear drive I scored my diff from a Pikes Peak Hill Climb car that was being reworked I contacted Bruce to get a diff and would have gone that way had I not gotten the chance to score the unit in my trans for (check this out ($300) It had less than 100 miles on it when I got it . A VW Thing with a locked rear is an real experience to drive off road. Go for it. K-mann
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TimGud
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kubelmann wrote:
I have a 73 off road Thing with a 1915 and a Thing trans that I built with all Weddle close ratio electron beam welded gears and all new internal parts I also have a Quaffe lsd diff I live offroad at 9000 ft and rip dual rooster tails with constant two wheel rear drive I scored my diff from a Pikes Peak Hill Climb car that was being reworked I contacted Bruce to get a diff and would have gone that way had I not gotten the chance to score the unit in my trans for (check this out ($300) It had less than 100 miles on it when I got it . A VW Thing with a locked rear is an real experience to drive off road. Go for it. K-mann


What issues do you have if any with turning?
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kubelmann
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no turning issues.
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DUSTY BUS
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking of purchasing a Quaife diff also, i can get a good deal on one.
People seem to not like the Quaifes. If one wheel is off the ground there will be no traction, like a stock diff. The ZF diffs sound good, im guessing these work the same way, are these ZF diffs still available. I do want to throw up big rooster tails and want the most traction all the time. We do alot of all type of offroading, from fast smooth, rock climbing, mud.
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Ian Epperson
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A ZF works by preventing one wheel from spinning much faster than the other. It prevents too much torque from going to a wheel with no grip. A Quaiffe puts more torque (more push) on a wheel that has more grip - a slight, but very important difference. However, the Quaiffe can't move ALL the torque, just most of it. So, with a Quaiffe, if a wheel is in the air, that wheel spins. How do you fix that? Just tap the brakes! That should provide enough resistance to move most of the torque to the gripping wheel.

For crazy offroading, the ZF is probably better as the Quaiffe. However, for most stuff, the Quaiffe is probably best. If you get one wheel fully in the air, you should be able to tap the brakes or tug on the parking brake to move some of the torque to the gripping wheel and roll out.

If you almost never get one wheel in the air, it will almost never be an issue.

Also, I believe the ZF has a clutch that needs periodic replacement. The Quaiffe has no such needs. A tight ZF will cause turning issues, but a Quaiffe will actually help for on-road performance by properly handling slippery conditions (ice or rain) and properly balancing the wheels if you do a burn out (important for drag racers).

Finally, the ZF is hard to find, but the Quaiffe is expensive ($1200+ just for the part) and they're not exactly bolt-on parts.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian Epperson wrote:

Also, I believe the ZF has a clutch that needs periodic replacement.
.


Haven't seen that yet. But then I've only owned about 120 ZFs.

Ian Epperson wrote:

. A tight ZF will cause turning issues,
.


The one in my daily driver operates just like a stock open diff when you're driving as if a cop is behind you. Get on the power, it's like a spool.

Ian Epperson wrote:

a Quaiffe will actually help for on-road performance by properly handling slippery conditions (ice or rain) and properly balancing the wheels if you do a burn out (important for drag racers).
.

So will a ZF. Traction in the snow is unreal with a ZF.
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oasis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is your opinion between a ZF and a Quaiffe with cornering on pavement? If I get a Thing (tops on my list), I would want to make it more performance based than off-road based -- a kind of pseudo-German Looker. Wet and snow roads would be an occasional consideration, too.

Also, I am aware stock Thing trannies are geared differently than, say, a Beetle. I would include a new transaxle with a new engine for such an idea.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oasis wrote:
What is your opinion between a ZF and a Quaiffe with cornering on pavement?

I can't offer a comparison. My car's only had ZFs in it.
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DUSTY BUS
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

who sells the zf diffs and how much arethey. Are replacement parts available?
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