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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 63
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| wonkipop wrote: |
fahn fahn fahn on the autobahn. 
as you can see from official owners manual in the glovebox.
the pretty little fastback with a 4 speed box.
official USA merchandise.
check your own archives on this website.
the glove box manual is listed as a pdf right here.
where i got the info. |
Thank you for that kind of information.
I´m only wondering about the dates for power and engine types.
Maybe there is something wrong in this especial owners manual.
suggest for 411, 412 US-models:
V = 1679 ccm, dual-carb, 68 hp
Z = 1679 ccm, dual-carb, 68 hp
W = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 80 hp
EA = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 80 hp (USA)
EB = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 72 hp (cal only)
EC = 1795 ccm, L-jet, 76 hp (USA + cal)
914 USA
W = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 80 hp
EA = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 80 hp (USA)
EB = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 72 hp (cal only)
EC = 1795 ccm, L-jet, 76 hp (USA + cal)
914 with 2 litres, USA
GA = 1991 ccm, D-jet, 95 hp
GC = 1991 ccm, D-jet, 88 hp
Addition, in germany, the 74 model 412 cars came only in 2 versions of two carb-engines with 1795 ccm: AN with 85 hp or with lower compression AT with 75 hp, allways at 5000 rpm.
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wagen19
nothing is incorrect in the owners manual of the 1974 USA market 412 i posted.
here is the Volkswagen of America sales brochure for the USA market 412.
this information checks against the owners manual for 1974 412s.
it is only for the last year of 1974 that 2 door with the 4 speed still coupled to the 1.7 D-Jet is restricted to the 49 states of USA.
the reason is simple. the continental United States operated a two tier structure during the introduction of emissions regulations in the early 1970s. California introduced a set of emissions standards on year in advance of the remaining 49 states. This rolled on to the next year the same way and so on. until quite recently. California emissions standards were set by CARB, the California Air Resources Board. 49 states were set by USEPA. cars were separately certified by CARB.
in 1974 it worked like this.
Californian cars were certified to 1974 CARB emissions standards.
49 State Cars were certified to 1974 USEPA standards (= 1973 CARB standards)
that is why the 1974 2 door 412 with manual transmission remained only for sale in the 49 states.
additionally the breakdown of the engine types for the USA market was more subtle than the engine numbering and types you list.
eg. in 1974 for the 412 1.8 L jet it broke down into two types of engines.
the EC-D for california and the EC-C for 49 states.
and for the 914 the 1.8 L jet broke down into two types of engines.
the EC-B for 49 states and the EC-A for california.
our research tracked down the CARB documentation for 914s from 1971 through to 1976. additionally we had 80 examples of 1974 1.8s on our files with information linking emissions stickers, tune up stickers, engine stencil numbers, points of original sale. the 412 certification is on the same documents as the 914. all there to read. lists only the wagon (variant) and the 4 door (sedan).
the documentation published by most sources glosses over this.
the EC engine in the 914s and the 412s was not USEPA and california certified.
ie universal to the whole market. it broke down into two sub classes.
the differences in the engine were small and in the case of the 914 amounted to connecting both the retard and advance hoses on the distributor double vac can to the throttle body for the EC-B engine. in the case of the EC-A engine the advance hose was disconnected. the engines were certified separately. the EC-A could be sold USA wide as it exceeded USEPA standards, the EC-B could only be sold in the 49 states. they had distinct and different emissions stickers in the engine bay with the certification limitations.
main point is the 412 2 door manual was not a grey market car in the USA and Canada. it was available in all regions until the end of 1973. it was restricted in the last year of life to not being available in california.
during 1975 the EC engines in the 914 continued to be distinguished as two different engines with distinct certification. the californian engines had EGR and catylists fitted. the 49 states cars were identical to the 1974 californian engines
i do not know the reason why VW chose not to make a version of the 2 door 412 for sale in california that met emissions standards. i suspect it had something to do with sales numbers. instead they chose to let it soldier on for its last year with a restriction not for sale in california. there is a loophole there that VW also exploited for the last year of the 914, the 1976. technically the 1976 914 did not meet california emissions standards. however manufacture ceased before jan 01 1976. this let it be certified as a 1975 model standard.
if you look closely at the specs for the 1974 412 2 door you can see it was not in fact meeting 1973 californian standards which you would expect for a 1974 49 states car. if it did its rated horsepower would have been 72 hp as per the 1973 california 412 with the EB engine. instead it has 80 hp and is the EA engine.
i think VW pulled the same trick. all the 1974 412 2 doors were built before jan 01 1974 and certified by the USEPA as equal to 1973 standards and restricted to sale in 49 states? a case of running out the model and stocks of engines and calling an end to it? 
and of course 50 years down the track with cars scattered all over the USA and dealers and mechanics who once worked on the cars long retired or passed away no one really knows the ins and outs of it any more.
all the information regarding the L-jet 914s has only recently come to light.
like the 412 the 1.8 914 has been long neglected as the least desirable of all the 914s and any reliable information concerning them has been thin on the ground.
regarding horsepower figures quoted in literature.
bear in mind that in 1973.74 the standard measures for horsepower quoted in the USA are transitioning. from SAE measures. i can't quite remember how it goes but there was two ways of measuring horsepower.
for instance the 74 914 1.8 is variously quoted at either 76h or 72/73 hp depending on the source of the literature. german or UK or USA.
similarly i have seen two figures quoted for the 73 EB calif engine as either 72 or 69. and also for the 75 and 76 2.0. so figures quoted for the 74 412 can also vary depending on whether SAE or the other measure being applied. |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 209
Location: germany
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| wonkipop wrote: |
| wagen19 wrote: |
| wonkipop wrote: |
fahn fahn fahn on the autobahn.
as you can see from official owners manual in the glovebox.
the pretty little fastback with a 4 speed box.
official USA merchandise.
check your own archives on this website.
the glove box manual is listed as a pdf right here.
where i got the info. |
Thank you for that kind of information.
I´m only wondering about the dates for power and engine types.
Maybe there is something wrong in this especial owners manual.
suggest for 411, 412 US-models:
V = 1679 ccm, dual-carb, 68 hp
Z = 1679 ccm, dual-carb, 68 hp
W = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 80 hp
EA = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 80 hp (USA)
EB = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 72 hp (cal only)
EC = 1795 ccm, L-jet, 76 hp (USA + cal)
914 USA
W = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 80 hp
EA = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 80 hp (USA)
EB = 1679 ccm, D-jet, 72 hp (cal only)
EC = 1795 ccm, L-jet, 76 hp (USA + cal)
914 with 2 litres, USA
GA = 1991 ccm, D-jet, 95 hp
GC = 1991 ccm, D-jet, 88 hp
Addition, in germany, the 74 model 412 cars came only in 2 versions of two carb-engines with 1795 ccm: AN with 85 hp or with lower compression AT with 75 hp, allways at 5000 rpm.
. |
wagen19
nothing is incorrect in the owners manual of the 1974 USA market 412 i posted.
here is the Volkswagen of America sales brochure for the USA market 412.
this information checks against the owners manual for 1974 412s.
it is only for the last year of 1974 that 2 door with the 4 speed still coupled to the 1.7 D-Jet is restricted to the 49 states of USA.
the reason is simple. the continental United States operated a two tier structure during the introduction of emissions regulations in the early 1970s. California introduced a set of emissions standards on year in advance of the remaining 49 states. This rolled on to the next year the same way and so on. until quite recently. California emissions standards were set by CARB, the California Air Resources Board. 49 states were set by USEPA. cars were separately certified by CARB.
in 1974 it worked like this.
Californian cars were certified to 1974 CARB emissions standards.
49 State Cars were certified to 1974 USEPA standards (= 1973 CARB standards)
that is why the 1974 2 door 412 with manual transmission remained only for sale in the 49 states.
additionally the breakdown of the engine types for the USA market was more subtle than the engine numbering and types you list.
eg. in 1974 for the 412 1.8 L jet it broke down into two types of engines.
the EC-D for california and the EC-C for 49 states.
and for the 914 the 1.8 L jet broke down into two types of engines.
the EC-B for 49 states and the EC-A for california.
our research tracked down the CARB documentation for 914s from 1971 through to 1976. additionally we had 80 examples of 1974 1.8s on our files with information linking emissions stickers, tune up stickers, engine stencil numbers, points of original sale. the 412 certification is on the same documents as the 914. all there to read. lists only the wagon (variant) and the 4 door (sedan).
the documentation published by most sources glosses over this.
the EC engine in the 914s and the 412s was not USEPA and california certified.
ie universal to the whole market. it broke down into two sub classes.
the differences in the engine were small and in the case of the 914 amounted to connecting both the retard and advance hoses on the distributor double vac can to the throttle body for the EC-B engine. in the case of the EC-A engine the advance hose was disconnected. the engines were certified separately. the EC-A could be sold USA wide as it exceeded USEPA standards, the EC-B could only be sold in the 49 states. they had distinct and different emissions stickers in the engine bay with the certification limitations.
main point is the 412 2 door manual was not a grey market car in the USA and Canada. it was available in all regions until the end of 1973. it was restricted in the last year of life to not being available in california.
during 1975 the EC engines in the 914 continued to be distinguished as two different engines with distinct certification. the californian engines had EGR and catylists fitted. the 49 states cars were identical to the 1974 californian engines
i do not know the reason why VW chose not to make a version of the 2 door 412 for sale in california that met emissions standards. i suspect it had something to do with sales numbers. instead they chose to let it soldier on for its last year with a restriction not for sale in california. there is a loophole there that VW also exploited for the last year of the 914, the 1976. technically the 1976 914 did not meet california emissions standards. however manufacture ceased before jan 01 1976. this let it be certified as a 1975 model standard.
if you look closely at the specs for the 1974 412 2 door you can see it was not in fact meeting 1973 californian standards which you would expect for a 1974 49 states car. if it did its rated horsepower would have been 72 hp as per the 1973 california 412 with the EB engine. instead it has 80 hp and is the EA engine.
i think VW pulled the same trick. all the 1974 412 2 doors were built before jan 01 1974 and certified by the USEPA as equal to 1973 standards and restricted to sale in 49 states? a case of running out the model and stocks of engines and calling an end to it?
and of course 50 years down the track with cars scattered all over the USA and dealers and mechanics who once worked on the cars long retired or passed away no one really knows the ins and outs of it any more.
all the information regarding the L-jet 914s has only recently come to light.
like the 412 the 1.8 914 has been long neglected as the least desirable of all the 914s and any reliable information concerning them has been thin on the ground.
regarding horsepower figures quoted in literature.
bear in mind that in 1973.74 the standard measures for horsepower quoted in the USA are transitioning. from SAE measures. i can't quite remember how it goes but there was two ways of measuring horsepower.
for instance the 74 914 1.8 is variously quoted at either 76h or 72/73 hp depending on the source of the literature. german or UK or USA.
similarly i have seen two figures quoted for the 73 EB calif engine as either 72 or 69. and also for the 75 and 76 2.0. so figures quoted for the 74 412 can also vary depending on whether SAE or the other measure being applied. |
Thank you again for all your interesting and detailed information.
Based on the theory of 2 different measuring methodes around 1973, 74 which makes an EA to 76 hp, an EC to 72 hp and an EB to 69 hp, all given info make sense.
The newer method brings a loss of 3 or 4 hp.
Maybe a different altitude or outside temperature of the measuring location can also cause a difference in hp. (compared to german DIN hp) |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 63
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:06 am Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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its all here wagen19
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower
scroll down to the headings re SAE horsepower.
they start measuring with accessories or without.
the difference is always about 3 hp.
and it starts entering the literature around 1973.
or thereabouts - so you get slightly different quoted horsepowers.
i have a bit of filed literature on the 1.8 L jets and the differing figures abound in it between VW tech manuals on fuel injection for L jet versus factory sales brochures etc.
someone like raygreenwood could explain it in one sentence.
the other giveaway that is real easy when you examine the literature etc on the 412 two door fastback is the required fuel. its higher octane.
in 73/74 the USA is transitioning to low octane unleaded.
only the super low hp EB engine for california could run on low octane unleaded along with the 1.8 engines for 74.
if you look closely the 74 412 fastback cannot run on unleaded. it states it in the owners manual and the sales brochure specs.
one thing i have not mentioned is that at the end of 1972/start of 1973 VW were caught in the first emissions cheat scandal. the USEPA prosecuted them.
VW did not contest with the USEPA , paid the fines and moved on and kept it quiet. Chrysler were also caught and contested the USEPA and ultimately paid millions in damages after they lost the case. we found all the documents relating to this.
the VW models involved were the type 3 fastback fitted with a auto gearbox and also the type 2 bus. cant remember what transmission it was running.
so VW were being looked at very closely by the USEPA and CARB right through 1973 and 1974. this had some bearing on the introduction of the L jet system.
i can give you the link to the topic on the 914world website where all our research is deposited if you are interested. its a bit esoteric given it was half a century ago. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2016
Posts: 301
Location: atlanta ga
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| would love to find a NICE 411 or 412. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 22505
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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To the previous question of why no two door, fastback 412 in California....I suspect that since there were no "normal" imports of two door sedan anywhere in the US. It was not a dealer offered option..... but yes, you could get it as a tourist vehicle picked up in Germany and shipped home of buy it gray market in Canada but since the two doors (as far as I have read) were only offered with D-jet injection, they were not going to meet the new EPA standards for 1974 in California.
The problem was also this. In general from everything I have read and been told by dealer personel over the years, the two door sedans had the manual transmission listed as standard equipment. Though I had never seen a two door with an automatic, I think it may have been wonkipop that pointed out a 1974 412 two door with an automatic transmission.
Pretty much everything that was offered as standard in the US market were all fuel injection and all automatic transmission and limited to four door sedan and wagon.
So....I am sure it makes sense that if the only way to get a new two door sedan in the US back in the day was to special order it as a tourist vehicle.....you could probably get any transmission you wanted. It was just as easy to put either transmission in these cars as all of the drillings, openings and access points for either transmission are already contained in all three body styles.
The issue with the two door fastback requiring higher octane (98 octane on my gas flap).....goes back to what I noted in the first few lines. For some reason, all of the dealer info I have ever been able fo find here in the US says that the two door sedans were only offered with D-jet injection and 1.7L with high compression 8.2:1.
With a California version of the 1.7L with the 7.3:1 compression and smog pump and EGR valve and PCV valve , the tuning was difficult enough to keep it alive....and passing emissions... with an automatic....with D-jet.....and was difficult enough in the four door and wagons.
With a manual transmission, a California emissions D-jet version of a two door would likely either drive poorly in that configuration or not pass emissions at the shift points the 004 four speed allows.
Ray |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 209
Location: germany
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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Not sure, if all here is still correct under this topic:
First of all, please let me say, my personal understanding is, that all kind of type 4, 411, 412, 914 and type 2 with type 4 based engines are the technical top end of aircooled VW based flat four engines.
All VW and Porsche flat 4 engines started around 1936 to 1938 with one litre, 985 ccm, bore 70,0 mm, stroke 64 mm, setting free 23,5 "german hp" and ended with two litres, 1971 ccm, bore 94,0, stroke 71 mm, offering 100 hp in the sporty german, european 914 GB engine version.
You see, along the years, displacement x 2, power x 4!
What about economy? 2024 I took my 49 standard, original 1131 ccm, 24,5 hp to Bad Camberg (about 280 km), I really like that original and unrestored car with cable brakes and so on, all fits and went perfectly, but the fuel consumption was on the same level, compared with a trip with my 73 914, GB engined, on a trip to Kaiserslautern (about 300 km) on german autobahn and "a bit" faster, than with the 49 split "wagen 19".
A 2-door 411 or better 412 type 41, shifter, with 5,5 rims, 195/60, already with serial shocks and original ground level is much more sporty, than I thougt in theory. A 901, maybe also a 915 trans can be installed with some efforts.
A GA or GB-engine can improve the situation more on.
The 411 and 412 sedans had beginning mod 1970 a rear stabilizer, which was a great inprovement.
Going sporty with type 4 wagon, a bolted on rear stabilizer makes fun, in combination with 5,5 rims. (think Ben Pon 411 RMC)
Randomly I found out, a 2 litre CJ bus-engine with carbs from an AN-engine brings high torque and good power up to about 4800 rpm.
Easily to install, also in a 411 or 412 wagons.
Autohaus Nordstadt in Hannover, Gunter Artz, used a 911 engine in a 411. There is pretty enough room to fit.
In stock, maybe to discuss or change:
69 type 41, shifter, "cyclop", V-engine
73 type 41, shifter, sunroof, W-engine
74 type 46, shifter, WOB pre series car, 464 2 000 02x, engine AT 000 01x (VW KBA Typprüfung)
74 type 46, shifter, 464 2 008 70x, AN-engine
73, 914, GB-engine
73, 914, GB-engine, with german papers, big project, or part out
parts:
some type 4 untouced engines, trans, also some NOS body-parts.
very rare ATS 14 zoll rims for type 4
Music:
for ex, 1970, Deep Purple, In Rock
and other sound, cars and bikes, especially beloved when constructed before oil crisis 1. |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 63
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
To the previous question of why no two door, fastback 412 in California....I suspect that since there were no "normal" imports of two door sedan anywhere in the US. It was not a dealer offered option..... but yes, you could get it as a tourist vehicle picked up in Germany and shipped home of buy it gray market in Canada but since the two doors (as far as I have read) were only offered with D-jet injection, they were not going to meet the new EPA standards for 1974 in California.
The problem was also this. In general from everything I have read and been told by dealer personel over the years, the two door sedans had the manual transmission listed as standard equipment. Though I had never seen a two door with an automatic, I think it may have been wonkipop that pointed out a 1974 412 two door with an automatic transmission.
Pretty much everything that was offered as standard in the US market were all fuel injection and all automatic transmission and limited to four door sedan and wagon.
So....I am sure it makes sense that if the only way to get a new two door sedan in the US back in the day was to special order it as a tourist vehicle.....you could probably get any transmission you wanted. It was just as easy to put either transmission in these cars as all of the drillings, openings and access points for either transmission are already contained in all three body styles.
The issue with the two door fastback requiring higher octane (98 octane on my gas flap).....goes back to what I noted in the first few lines. For some reason, all of the dealer info I have ever been able fo find here in the US says that the two door sedans were only offered with D-jet injection and 1.7L with high compression 8.2:1.
With a California version of the 1.7L with the 7.3:1 compression and smog pump and EGR valve and PCV valve , the tuning was difficult enough to keep it alive....and passing emissions... with an automatic....with D-jet.....and was difficult enough in the four door and wagons.
With a manual transmission, a California emissions D-jet version of a two door would likely either drive poorly in that configuration or not pass emissions at the shift points the 004 four speed allows.
Ray |
no - wasn't me that pointed out a 2 door auto was available.
everything i have ever come across says manual box only.
re the official availability of 2 door 411/412 in USA market.
i confess all my research instigated by the 1.8 L jet 914s in relation to the VW type 4 concentrated on the 412 of 1973 and particularly 1974.
i always take someones views seriously re raygreenwood stating no fastbacks ni North America ---last night i dug into sales literature of the VW 411 which i have not really ever looked at. i concentrated only on the 412 with the 914 research (and even with 914s it was all around the 1974 75 models). everything i found says that only the 411 4 door and 2 door variant were available in the USA market from 1971 to 72. the years the 411 was sold there.
and.......with the 412, VW of North America started offering the 2 door fastback.
it looks like that is how it went.
the 411 was sold exclusively as the variant and the 4 door only in USA up to 1972MY
the 412 was offered as the full range of variant, 4 door and 2 door. with manual box in the 2 door fastback and auto box only in the 4 door and variant for 1973 and 1974 MY. with the fastback restricted from sale in california in 1974.
Djet engines across all the models of 412 in 1973.
L jet engines in the variant and the 4 door in 1974.
with the curious anomaly of the Djet 1.7 in the 2 door only in 1974.
i extracted this info from the archives section of this website looking into the sales brochures. i had never looked at the 411 sales brochures.
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 63
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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so would i sort of.
i did drive a slush box 412 variant down in texas a long time ago.
around 1989/91 when i was with my girlfriend in houston.
with a plan in mind to throw it in the shipping container with the 914.
dog slow. big and comfortable but sluggish.
.......a 74 412 variant with an AN twin carb 1.8 high compression euro motor would give a USA spec 914 1.8 a run for its money.
thats if you could ever find one. i imagine most have turned to oxide powder a long time ago in germany/europe.
i always remember the front wind down windows with the slot aligning with the A pillar instead of a flip out vent windows like the type 3. a very cunning design. along with the leg room in the front. extra-ordinary.
never been a fan of the front end styling of the 411. suspect the early prototype versions with single circular headlights were very pretty but it kind of went wrong with the big oval and twin healight look. am a fan of the 412 styling. much prettier. just an opinion of course. i think there is one solitary 412 in australia that was an ex embassy car from canberra. last i heard it was up in brisbane. not sure what state it is in these days. probably expired.
the early proto styling on the type 3 replacement and type 4 model had pinninfarina design. very resolved, very pretty. but something went wrong along the way. probably endless nervous VW committee fiddling?
some of the same front end styling found its way into the porsche developed beetle replacement. again extremely resolved and very pretty.
it was a good thing that VW basically left guigiaro's styling for the golf alone pretty much and didn't fiddle it. otherwise they would have been in a real mess in the 70s. |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 63
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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here is two documents i found last night looking into archive section of this website. this material was in addition to the VW of North America printed sales brochures.
kind of clears up the mystery of the two door fastback in north america.
was only ever a 412, never the 411.
anyway - an interesting hijack re the type 4 fastback.
anything VW type 4 is interesting.
very innovative as last of the aircooleds.
but getting back to working on EFI VW type 4 engines.
not really a problem down here finding a mechanic.
though you got to find the right guys.
mine gets worked on by a genius guy is his early 40s.
he can fix anything so long as its interesting.
while we were recommissioning my 914 he was sorting out a very rare citroen GS bi-rotor wankel. only one in australia.
not an unduly expensive mechanic but very talented.
his own fleet of cars involves early 1960s ford falcons, a holden 49 (first holden) and a 1920s swift. his work car is a 1990s falcon ute. very eclectic.
he regularly maintains an NSU RO80 for a customer and a whole swag of 911s from the 60s through to the 90s. alfas. lancias. volvos. citroens. you name it.
i've even seen morgans in there. its always interesting in the workshop.
as he said to me he would rather work on my 914 than a 21st century audi A3.
ever tried to change the water pump on one of those.
you need pretty skinny arms to get down in there - otherwise you are gonna be removing most of the engine air intake system.........
or changed a cam belt on a 2002 renault RS clio.
boy thats fun. mirrors are involved and constant jiggling of the engine up and down relative to the body once the engine mount is off. 
a 914 is a dream to work on.
a 411/412 would be even sweeter in terms of easy access to components.
esp the fan belt.
the only dramas with a D jet or early L jet system is that some of the parts are drying up and international searches are involved to get hold of them. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 22505
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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In this answer, I would like to say to the moderators to please do not lock this thread! At some point I may make a seperrate discussion excerpt and with your help, move it to the 411/412 forum but I think it should stay here for the moment please!
I realize this is the 914 forum....but the subject was brought up by the OP...and I have been saying for years that it is very important IMHO for the 914 guys to have a good basic understanding of the 411/412 cars....even more than the bay window bus guys need to.
The 411/412 came first...before the 914. The first engine for the 914 came directly from the 411/412...every last bolt except exhaust manifolds and a few ther trinkets. The next engine (1.8L) landed in both cars at the same time. Identical.
There is a lot of history here that can help the 914 guys getting some parts.
Wagen19 said:
| Quote: |
| A 2-door 411 or better 412 type 41, shifter, with 5,5 rims, 195/60, already with serial shocks and original ground level is much more sporty, than I thougt in theory. |
This is the combination I have with my 1973 VW412 two door. I have also run this on the four door and the wagon.
The 2 door weighs in at ~2200 lbs. The 5.5's with at best 205/60-15 or at nominal 195/60 or 65-15's with about an inch dropped in the front to get rid of that nose high issue that was a design mistake in the front struts as well as factory gas shocks in rear and Audi low pressure gas struts in front makes this car handle VERY well.
| Quote: |
| A 901, maybe also a 915 trans can be installed with some efforts. |
Yes....with a lot of effort. The 004 manual trans has a tailcone that is totally different than the other vW trans and it has a full rear cross beam and no room to work. It could be done but some chassis cutting and welding will have to happen.
While the five speed would be nice and the ratios a little closer, the 004 is a nice gearbox and has a very high gearing in the final drive which really helps.
| Quote: |
| A GA or GB-engine can improve the situation more on. |
Yes, but....not a necessary as one thinks. With some proper tuning to the D-jet, a better cam and ignition and a much needed bump in compression (about 8.5:1 is plenty)....you can get north of 90 hp with the factory 1.7L. I have done this and with the suspension mods above....this is a REALLY nice car to drive. Much more sporty than one thinks.
| Quote: |
The 411 and 412 sedans had beginning mod 1970 a rear stabilizer, which was a great inprovement.
Going sporty with type 4 wagon, a bolted on rear stabilizer makes fun, in combination with 5,5 rims. (think Ben Pon 411 RMC) |
This is an interesting point. The wagon/variant models all have all of the drillings and threads to mount the stabilizer bar in the rear beam and in the rear trailing wishbones. Adding the stabilizer bar to teh variant is a 30 minute bolt on job.
That being said, there were two stabilizer bar designs. The early one was a straight cross bar in the middle with straight rearward facing arms at each end. The later bar was what the books called "cranked". It had a section on the left side of the bar just left of the centerline where the bar had an angular "jog" downward about 2" and then it jogged back up.
The early bar was ~17-18mm diameter and the late bar was ~15-16mm diameter. The thinner...late bar with the jog....was actually stiffer than the thicker early bar.
The way that works is that the jog area increases the active length being leveraged aginst.
A fantastic handling modification that several of us have done....I drove on it for years....is to acquire two rear sway bars and mount them together with a pair of piggy back mounts. They have the same progressive spring formula so all this does is effectively double the rear sway control....which is very much needed because most of the cars mass is back there.
Ray |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 209
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
In this answer, I would like to say to the moderators to please do not lock this thread! At some point I may make a seperrate discussion excerpt and with your help, move it to the 411/412 forum but I think it should stay here for the moment please!
I realize this is the 914 forum....but the subject was brought up by the OP...and I have been saying for years that it is very important IMHO for the 914 guys to have a good basic understanding of the 411/412 cars....even more than the bay window bus guys need to.
The 411/412 came first...before the 914. The first engine for the 914 came directly from the 411/412...every last bolt except exhaust manifolds and a few ther trinkets. The next engine (1.8L) landed in both cars at the same time. Identical.
There is a lot of history here that can help the 914 guys getting some parts.
Wagen19 said:
| Quote: |
| A 2-door 411 or better 412 type 41, shifter, with 5,5 rims, 195/60, already with serial shocks and original ground level is much more sporty, than I thougt in theory. |
This is the combination I have with my 1973 VW412 two door. I have also run this on the four door and the wagon.
The 2 door weighs in at ~2200 lbs. The 5.5's with at best 205/60-15 or at nominal 195/60 or 65-15's with about an inch dropped in the front to get rid of that nose high issue that was a design mistake in the front struts as well as factory gas shocks in rear and Audi low pressure gas struts in front makes this car handle VERY well.
| Quote: |
| A 901, maybe also a 915 trans can be installed with some efforts. |
Yes....with a lot of effort. The 004 manual trans has a tailcone that is totally different than the other vW trans and it has a full rear cross beam and no room to work. It could be done but some chassis cutting and welding will have to happen.
While the five speed would be nice and the ratios a little closer, the 004 is a nice gearbox and has a very high gearing in the final drive which really helps.
| Quote: |
| A GA or GB-engine can improve the situation more on. |
Yes, but....not a necessary as one thinks. With some proper tuning to the D-jet, a better cam and ignition and a much needed bump in compression (about 8.5:1 is plenty)....you can get north of 90 hp with the factory 1.7L. I have done this and with the suspension mods above....this is a REALLY nice car to drive. Much more sporty than one thinks.
| Quote: |
The 411 and 412 sedans had beginning mod 1970 a rear stabilizer, which was a great inprovement.
Going sporty with type 4 wagon, a bolted on rear stabilizer makes fun, in combination with 5,5 rims. (think Ben Pon 411 RMC) |
This is an interesting point. The wagon/variant models all have all of the drillings and threads to mount the stabilizer bar in the rear beam and in the rear trailing wishbones. Adding the stabilizer bar to teh variant is a 30 minute bolt on job.
That being said, there were two stabilizer bar designs. The early one was a straight cross bar in the middle with straight rearward facing arms at each end. The later bar was what the books called "cranked". It had a section on the left side of the bar just left of the centerline where the bar had an angular "jog" downward about 2" and then it jogged back up.
The early bar was ~17-18mm diameter and the late bar was ~15-16mm diameter. The thinner...late bar with the jog....was actually stiffer than the thicker early bar.
The way that works is that the jog area increases the active length being leveraged aginst.
A fantastic handling modification that several of us have done....I drove on it for years....is to acquire two rear sway bars and mount them together with a pair of piggy back mounts. They have the same progressive spring formula so all this does is effectively double the rear sway control....which is very much needed because most of the cars mass is back there.
Ray |
914 good news-bad news?
Back to that point.
Many cars are offered on the market, for ex in USA and germany.
Much more than 411, 412 or 912 E.
Severe problem on 914 is a rusted body. No roof, a rusted hell-hole, weak longs and corroded away mounts for rear axle right side. Engines can be fixed, neither with D-Jet, L-Jet, or if nothing helps, with aftermarket carbs.
The costs, especially for body-parts and body resto is the biggest problem (imo).
Compared the 914 with 411, 412 and 912 (E), or even bays and early aircooled vanagons, body repairs are the highest cost and challenge.
If stock or not overdone, the engines are very solid, way more solid, than the 1.6 type one under performing stress.
Thinking about the "character" of "our" cars.
Most sporty, in Formula 1 mid-engine configuration, is the 914. If not with 6 cylinders. 4 cylinder-engines like GB, GA, GC and others are really good and rather easy to maintain.
The 912 (E) with his big fuel tank and thrifty engine in stock configuration looks way more as 911 than it really is. Comfort: not much better than 914.
The 411 and 412 type 46, wagon, Variant: BIG interior and 2 large trunks in front and rear, good for family purpose and was used for ex as transport vehicle from Porsche Salzburg, rallying the 1302 S and 1303 S, maybe also in Elba 1973.
Imo, for Dutch-style landscape and cruising only ambitions, the 3-speed Automatic is a very good choice. In all other cases, a shifter is better to start with.
Personal idea: suggest to take and understand a 411 or 412 type 41 shifter as a "comfort 912 E, or even 911, depending the placed powerstation, tranny and brakes and so on.
Can be, Norfhoff thought, a 411 when planned, should be understood as the "family 911", a top range VW with 4 doors with nearly 911, or at least double performance as the beetle. (When starting the 411 with 68 hp, the beetle had only the half, 34 hp that time. The 914 was also in the pipeline.)
Interior comfort:
Myself, born in 1963, I feel more and more, my deep, rather strong and noisy 73, still originally D-jetted 914 with GB-engine is not as comfortable and easy entering and getting out, as my beetles, bays, or type 3 and especially the type 4s, type 41 and 46, I still have.
The type 42 I had many years ago, a 73, W-engined shifter, maya metallic sedan with M 506, power brakes, completely stock, was a superb cornering and braking car, compared to all other aircooled VW´s I had in the 80th and early 90th.
Based on that expieriance, I would like to find a a type 41 shifter with sunroof and M 506. Unfortunatly my 73 turquise type 41 sunroof has no M 506.
But, 911 calipers and vented discs can also help. That´s the idea.
Engines:
Yes, the 1.7 l can be rather easily upgraded for more high-end power, but only with loosing torque at low revs.
The question is, wether you really want a nervous, noisy, high revs demanding "racing-engine".
A 2 litre with mild cam, eventually with a very mild bus-cam and L-jet or 40 carbs can bring better torque beginning at idling. Why not trying a CJ, GD, GE or CV-based engine in our cars? (CJ with AN-carbs, tested in type 46)
So it´s not a race-car, but very comfortable and rather sovereign at any speed. |
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scottyrocks
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2810
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
Can be, Norfhoff thought, a 411 when planned, should be understood as the "family 911", a top range VW with 4 doors with nearly 911, or at least double performance as the beetle. (When starting the 411 with 68 hp, the beetle had only the half, 34 hp that time. The 914 was also in the pipeline.) |
I was under the impression that the '68 Beetle (when the 411 was first shown at the Paris Motor Show) had 53 hp.
_________________
“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 209
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| scottyrocks wrote: |
| wagen19 wrote: |
Can be, Norfhoff thought, a 411 when planned, should be understood as the "family 911", a top range VW with 4 doors with nearly 911, or at least double performance as the beetle. (When starting the 411 with 68 hp, the beetle had only the half, 34 hp that time. The 914 was also in the pipeline.) |
I was under the impression that the '68 Beetle (when the 411 was first shown at the Paris Motor Show) had 53 hp. |
Of course, you are correct this way. In August 68 when the 411 was ready to sell, the situation about beetle hp had changed. It´s known that the beetle gets 1300 ccm and 40 hp in August 65 and 1500 ccm and 44 hp August 66. But I wrote, "a 411, when planned", starting some years earlier. Well, you can also think about type 3 with 1600ccm and 54 hp and compare. But we can wonder, while the D-Jet came first for the type 3 in August 67, the D-Jet for the type 4 was one year later, August 68 still not ready to sell. The new top-end type 4 model came with oldstyle carbs. What a blame for VW that time. In August 69 the type 4 gets the D-Jet with 80 hp, but only for manual shifters. Finally the 71 models had then the D-Jet for manuals and matics. It´s not allways a easy business. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 22505
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| Quote: |
914 good news-bad news?
Back to that point.
Many cars are offered on the market, for ex in USA and germany.
Much more than 411, 412 or 912 E.
Severe problem on 914 is a rusted body. No roof, a rusted hell-hole, weak longs and corroded away mounts for rear axle right side. Engines can be fixed, neither with D-Jet, L-Jet, or if nothing helps, with aftermarket carbs. |
Totally agree!...and actually it seems all of the type 4 based cars....411, 412, 914, 912.... (being largely of the same era and similar monocoque construction) have pretty much the same restoration issues with the chassis!
The 411 and 412 actually have equal or worse rust problems due to construction and undercoating methods as the 914 except that there are "0" reproductpn parts made for 411/412.
In my opinion...Types 1 and 3 are fairly easy restoration (year dependent). The bus....well its just big and has a lot of parts and abuse. The difficulties of 411/412 are just not widely known by most because compared to 914....very few people work on or have worked on 411/412....I mean REALLY worked on them.
At least the 914 is more popular and more plentiful (at least in the US) so it has "some" re-made parts but I do agree. The body is the hardest part on a 914.
| Quote: |
Engines:
Yes, the 1.7 l can be rather easily upgraded for more high-end power, but only with loosing torque at low revs.
The question is, wether you really want a nervous, noisy, high revs demanding "racing-engine". |
I am not sure why you would believe this. Upgrading the TUNE on the 1.7L will actually increase torque across the power band. Not a lot in certain areas....yes....down low will be the smallest gain, but in the more used midrange and top end its much better.
By these comments I mean...there are two main areas/types of tuning improvement for the D-jet injected 1.7L. These apply equally to the 1.7L in the 914 (same engine across) the board but has some slight difference in driveability and mid range power band because the gearing is different between 411/412 and 914.
It goes like this:
1. Before you start changing the mechanical part of the tune (cam, valves, exhaust etc.)....you need to get rid of the "infirmities" of the original factory tuning. While it can be said that the factory level of tuning was adequate, homogenized and smooth....it was in reality fairly generalized to allow the use of very generalized settings in critical parts.
By this I mean, MPS settings were the same for each MPW withon a part # just sitting on the shelf and for example, the tuning detail of the TVS is generalized for publication and simplicity and is not that precise. And...there is no real advertized tuning for the MPS.
A. The MPS tuning was generalized to allow the use of an off the rack MPS with no special tuning for the minute differences of the vacuum signature of each engine on the assembly line.
Years later we started seeing corrections to this issue via MPS's that were paint marked for different main armature settings (and still did littleto address the full load stop adjustment) .... installed at dealers for cars whose location (altitude, temperature, driving and fuel conditions) just could not ever seem to be in excellent tune.
Virtually all 1.7L with D-jet (this can probably be said for 2.0L as well) ran either slightly leaner or slightly richer at idle....than would have been perfect/ideal... depending on the interpretation by the MPS of the vacuum signature of the individual engines....and the resolution of the fuel pressure regulator....and stability of the fuel pump output.
B. And based on those last few items, which MUST be taken into account because they alter the vacuum signature.... a fair portion of the differences in the fuel curve tuning from engine to engine ....was the rather poor (by modern standards) fuel pressure RESOLUTION AND STABILITY of D-jet systems.
When you have an injection system with no real logic, no downstream sensors, few upstream sensors (which also have low resolution and poor long term stability being thermistor based)....and the BASELINE fuel "dosage"....like all fuel injection systems....equals "pressure X time"....your fuel pressure MUST be 0.5 psi stable at any throttle setting because the ECU has no way to adjust itself to teh variation. Most systems were fairly close to +/- 0.5 psi stability ...when new....out of the factory but in fairly short order, most were not.
Stabilizing fuel pressure with a primary regulator and using the factory regulator as a secondary regulator or really for "trimming"....fixes a lot of this issue. Getting a better more modern pump fixes the rest of it.
Once you get better fuel pressure stability....an adjustment to the MPS to take advantage of this is not only allowable but in most cases will be required. It makes that much difference!
C. Getting rid of the stock coil and going to a more powerful one is the next stage and makes a LOT of difference. The 411/412/914 with higher compression is already "under-ignited" for high speed driving.
We can see this ignition power output improvement movement across the VW Audi spectrum from the Perma-Tune systems of the 911 to the early watercooled VW engines that used Hall effect and 55Kv coils to work with higher compression.
The type 4 engine with higher compression is no different.
A LARGE improvement with higher compression and lean fueling can be as simple as a points replacement module (already an improvement as it produces a more advantageous signal that is closer to a "square" wave) and has roughly twice the voltage output as the stock coil.
This upgrade or almost any kind of better controlled ignition with higher output...is REQUIRED to allow proper more exact tuning of the MPS.
D. Then we get to details like ballasting of the TS-2, sometimes ballasting the TS-1 and proper...PROPER...accurate adjustment of the TVS which none of the books describe very accurately for all marks of this component.
See this thread for details on TVS adjustment
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683230&highlight=tvs+adjustment
2. Lastly...once all of that external tuning above is done, stock D-jet with no mechanical changes will typically pick up about 3-4 hp and corresponding torque and much better throttle response. Mid to high 80's for HP.
The next stages are mechanical. Better cam, better compression...which starts very simply by getting rid of the head gasket (there is a dealer bulletin for this) and base shim on the cylinder. This brings compression to roughly 8.4:1 or slighly more on some engines.
The compression alone....and the fueling/MPS adjustment required to use that higher compression....will net you several HP. Just to this stage in tuning you can be a little less than 90hp.
Better cam, better exhaust, minor valve changes depending on cam...all of this during a rebuild....and you can be in the mid 90's in hp or slightly higher. With proper selectiosn there is no reason to lose torque and power down low.
That is the other issue that is too often done with D-jet engines. You have to keep in mind that when selecting cams and valves....you will NOT be sliding the rpm scale upward. All of the D-jet systems pretty much are limited to ~5800 to 5900 rpm.
Ray
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 63
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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[quote="wagen19"]
| raygreenwood wrote: |
In this answer, I would like to say to the moderators to please do not lock this thread! At some point I may make a seperrate discussion excerpt and with your help, move it to the 411/412 forum but I think it should stay here for the moment please!
There is a lot of history here that can help the 914 guys getting some parts.
Wagen19 said:
914 good news-bad news?
Can be, Norfhoff thought, a 411 when planned, should be understood as the "family 911", a top range VW with 4 doors with nearly 911, or at least double performance as the beetle. |
wagen19
this is exactly how VW Australia looked at the type 3 fastback.
(in the absence of deciding not to market the 411/412 in aus).
30 + years back a mate of mine (now passed) had a top spec type 3 fastback he inherited from his late father. it was still all factory original back then.
came with a 1600 D jet EFI engine.
full length go faster stripes on the exterior flanks which read TYPE 3 on the rear mudguard panels.
the interior was the most interesting part.
in place of the clock was a tachometer.
the clock was repositioned to a factory console which ran between the front bucket seats and encapsulated the gear lever.
in australia you had two choices.
buy a 911 if you were rich. (the full 911 with a 6).
buy a type 3 fastback if you poor (-ish).
the 914 was never sold here (never made rhd).
the 912 was sold but was never a big seller like the USA. too expensive for a low hp car.
i imagine had the 411/412 been sold here the fast back 2 door would have been marketed as the top of the line sport VW model. probably dressed up like the fastbacks.
in australia the type 3 was sold as the notchback as well which took care of the niche of the pedestrian everyday VW sedan as a more modern alternative to the beetle. a huge amount of notchbacks used to get around in the 1960s/70s and 80s. all now gone. an equally large number of variants (squarebacks). the fastback was a rarer vehicle.
if the 914 had been sold in australia it would have been a very small market in vary small numbers unlike the USA scenario. |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 63
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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australian type 3 fastback.
top of the line sporty model. D jet. tacho. console.
(this example is an auto, super super rare in australia. could even be an only survivor). the fastbacks could be dressed up with riviera hubcaps or even fuchs hubcabs. i can remember them. this ones running a set of real rivieras.
separate car showing the side stripes. rarely seen today. most cars repainted.
any side stripes would be custom made repros after a restoration. back in the day pretty common to see on about 50% of the fastbacks.
a 411/412 fastback could have been a contender in the junior porsche department. filled a gap in a way that the 914 did in the USA.
but as fate would have it came along too late as the japanese were winning the sales game big time and the DM was rising in value. one possibility might have been importing them from SA to keep prices lower but sadly never stacked up.
i think VW could have made the fastback a goer here. the squareback and 4 door would have fallen victim to the japanese cars and been a non seller. but they could have made the fastback worked alongside the beetles and buses they were stilll selling.
the best aus got was the fully loaded T3 EFI fastback. think it was called the TLE.
no easier or harder to work on that an EFI type 4 engine if you ask me.
maybe doing the valve adjustments is more convenient of the rear engined cars than compared to the 914. you really want a hoist for a 914. you can just slide in there on a T3, T4. used to do my T3 in the driveway. no way can i do the valves in my 914 like that.
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Windisch
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2014
Posts: 401
Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| wonkipop wrote: |
| fahn fahn fahn on the autobahn. |
AH! KRAFTWERK! I had that album on cassette and practically wore out my player listening to it. Fond memories driving my sportscar along on the highway through mountain passes to climb Mt. Whitney, Palisades, Mt. Shasta, etc., etc. That was memorable stuff. I still have a CD of that KRAFTWERK recording...and also one of THE HEIMATDAMISCH (playing Highway to Oberkrain!). They make 'em gut in Germany (and in Oberkrain), Ja Heinie?
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
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Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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Vanagonsgoslow
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2019
Posts: 103
Location: E Dorado Hills, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| Have you contacted Ron Kain at IPB Motorsport in Sacramento or Frank’s Automotive in Sacramento? Both shops have good reputations with the Porsche air cooler owners in the region. A VWBug mechanic is not a reliable source of info on 914’s. |
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Windisch
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2014
Posts: 401
Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| Vanagonsgoslow wrote: |
| Have you contacted Ron Kain at IPB Motorsport in Sacramento or Frank’s Automotive in Sacramento? Both shops have good reputations with the Porsche air cooler owners in the region. A VWBug mechanic is not a reliable source of info on 914’s. |
Yes, Ron is my 'main man' as far as care for my car goes, but during a visit there I had requested that my carbs be balanced and tuned (timing checked,. etc.), plus a valve adjust. The valve adjust seems to have been perfectly satisfactory but the car still has those exhaust *pops* and occasional small backfires at speed (and accelerating above 2000 RPM, which makes me think that the carbs were not sufficiently checked (i.e. appropriate jets, lean or rich, et al) at that time. I may take it back in and request that this time the carbs jetting be FULLY looked at and the car driven to check performance afterwards. It just doesn't seem reasonable that the car still has these 'HICCUPS' after a careful and skillful carb tuning session has been completed.
My examination of the plugs seems to suggest a too-rich situation since they don't show any sign of the sort of deposits lean plugs would have. Suffice it to say I'm not fully convinced that Ron's mechanic takes my car seriously enough to give it a complete and professional going-over in this (carb/timing, etc.) regard.
If I were making similar requests of the sort an expensive Carrera owner would, I have no doubt everything would be top-drawer complete. 914s just don't seem to inspire Porsche mechanics...same old story of being regarded as merely 'entry-level' Porsches and not taken as seriously as the really expensive hardware are. I could admittedly be completely wrong in having this feeling, but few Porsche garages and services would even bother working on a 914, given that "VW/Porsche" bias.
Back east, there are any number of top-rated 914 specialty shops but out here in Northern California, 914s seem to be 'little bastard children' in the eyes of too many 'sniffy' Porsche people. I don't think I'm alone in this feeling. As the old saying goes, "FOLLOW THE MONEY." Mumble-mumble.
PS: FRANK'S says that they no longer work on 914s, the excuse being that there aren't enough available mechanics who know much about 'THE OLD STUFF." Them's fightin' words, since some years ago, Frank's was my 914 service and care provider, but even then I remain unconvinced they (Frank's) took 914s seriously! Some of their work was downright bad. 
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
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Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 22505
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Bad news about the VW/Porsche 914...True/false? |
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| Windisch wrote: |
| wonkipop wrote: |
| fahn fahn fahn on the autobahn. |
AH! KRAFTWERK! I had that album on cassette and practically wore out my player listening to it. Fond memories driving my sportscar along on the highway through mountain passes to climb Mt. Whitney, Palisades, Mt. Shasta, etc., etc. That was memorable stuff. I still have a CD of that KRAFTWERK recording...and also one of THE HEIMATDAMISCH (playing Highway to Oberkrain!). They make 'em gut in Germany (and in Oberkrain), Ja Heinie? |
Holy crap!.....The THE HEIMATDAMISCH!
Conny Kreitmier is the bomb!
Ray |
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