| Author |
Message |
aquifer
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 179
Location: Nebraska
|
 Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 2:47 pm Post subject: New crank seals leaking |
 |
|
I haven’t installed my engine yet, but I installed a new flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disc. New seal and o ring. Everything seemed to install perfectly. But it’s leaking oil around the seal or o ring.
Here’s how I discovered the leak:
I installed a rebuilt fuel pump, and as part of that task I slowly turned the engine over a few times with a wrench on the pulley nut to make sure the push rod was never more than 13mm above the plastic stand. All was good.
Later I noticed a small puddle of oil on the floor under the flywheel. Investigations revealed that it was coming out from behind the flywheel. I deduced that a small amount of oil must have been pumped as I was turning the engine by hand, and it ran out around the flywheel.
I pulled the clutch and flywheel off to investigate further. I thought maybe I’d accidentally gashed the seal or the o ring during installation. Nope. Everything looks pristine and perfect.
Yet oil is getting past either the seal or the o ring somehow. And it must be a pretty big “hole” because there would have been virtually zero oil pressure from me slowly rotating the crankshaft by hand.
Here is what I did when I installed the new stuff:
I smeared a light coat of aircraft gasket maker on the outside of the seal and pressed it in gently with the correct seal installer tool. It seated nice against the case and is recessed maybe 1/16” or less from the outer plane of the case. Seems perfect.
I smeared oil on the inside lip of the seal and on the flywheel hub that slides into the seal. I also smeared oil on the o ring and the end of the crankshaft so everything would slide together nice.
It seemed to go together perfectly.
So why does oil run out? I measured the hub depth and width on the old flywheel and the new one. They’re identical.
Is there supposed to be a gasket that goes on the dowels? The old flywheel didn’t have a gasket there, and there doesn’t seem to be any old gasket maker in that area?
What did I do wrong? What can I check? Thanks
The only good thing is that I discovered this before installing the engine. Just dumb luck!
_________________
Current hobby vehicles:
1967 Beetle
1973 Beetle
1998 Jaguar XJR, restored myself, in near-immaculate condition |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 10375
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
What engine are you installing? Stock or mildly hopped up?
Why are you changing the flywheel?
As a test, place the old flywheel on the crank and torque to spec. See if it continues to leak oil.
Is it possible that you, somehow damaged the seal spring when installing the seal?
There's no flywheel gasket around the dowel pins on a o-ring flywheel.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 32378
Location: Hot Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
| aquifer wrote: |
| I haven’t installed my engine yet, but I installed a new flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disc. New seal and o ring. Everything seemed to install perfectly. But it’s leaking oil around the seal or o ring. |
1. You didn't make it clear whether this was an existing engine and you just installed a new flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disc, and new seal and O- ring, or a newly-rebuilt engine...but with a NEW flywheel, one must check/adjust the end play anyway.
2. Even with an existing engine, one MUST check/adjust the end play if the flywheel is new !!! And with the flywheel to be actually used. And the gland nut needs to be torqued properly.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
Last edited by Cusser on Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aquifer
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 179
Location: Nebraska
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
It’s the stock 1500 engine. Replacing the flywheel because it’s significantly discolored from being hot, and has grooves worn in to it. The clutch had a fairly significant chatter, so I’m renewing the whole setup while I’m there.
I ordered a new seal and o ring, and I’m planning to start over. Good idea about the old flywheel, I’ll do that. I wouldn’t need to install the clutch/pressure plate for this test. I have a micrometer and everything I measured and compared from the old flywheel to the new one where the gaskets ride was the same on both. I was thinking maybe the OD of the hub on the new flywheel was smaller or something, allowing oil to seep past, or that the ID was bigger, allowing oil to seep past the o ring. No apparent differences.
I’ll try fitting the old flywheel and see what happens. Thanks for the idea. I’m still stumped, but if this works I’ll know there’s something different about the new flywheel.
_________________
Current hobby vehicles:
1967 Beetle
1973 Beetle
1998 Jaguar XJR, restored myself, in near-immaculate condition |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 32378
Location: Hot Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
Even though I now do own a flywheel seal installer, I've not yet used it (have not yet had need). In the past, I've just used a short piece of 1/2" wooden dowel and tapped the seal in with a hammer, gently and working my way around. I'm not actually recommending this technique, just that I've never had a leaker.
I've use Permatex Aviation on the seal outer edge and engine oil on its inner lip and on the corresponding surface on the flywheel snout.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aquifer
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 179
Location: Nebraska
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
| Cusser wrote: |
| aquifer wrote: |
| I haven’t installed my engine yet, but I installed a new flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disc. New seal and o ring. Everything seemed to install perfectly. But it’s leaking oil around the seal or o ring. |
1. You didn't make it clear whether this was an existing engine and you just installed a new flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disc, and new seal and O- ring, or a newly-rebuilt engine...but with a NEW flywheel, one must check/adjust the end play anyway.
2. Even with an existing engine, one MUST check/adjust the end play if the flywheel is new !!! And with the flywheel to be actually used. And the gland nut needs to be torqued properly. |
Existing engine, not a rebuild project, just installing a new flywheel.
I need to check the end play. I had not done that and I should have thought of it when installing a new flywheel. I have done that procedure once in my life several decades ago on another VW. I’ll study up on the process and make sure the end play is correct.
That said, can incorrect end play cause a leak like this? Thanks for the questions, I needed to check end play regardless, and now I will do that.
Edited to add: however many shims were in there with the old flywheel are still in there because I didn’t touch them. It will likely need a different stack, but I’ll check it for sure.
_________________
Current hobby vehicles:
1967 Beetle
1973 Beetle
1998 Jaguar XJR, restored myself, in near-immaculate condition
Last edited by aquifer on Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 10375
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
I don't need new flywheels. I just have them resurfaced by a local shop, $50 for a resurface is cheap insurance.
I've never had any success using a piece of wooden dowel or a large socket to drive the seal into the case.
I use the proper installation tool and get it set to the correct depth, as the OP has stated he does.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aquifer
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 179
Location: Nebraska
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
I don't need new flywheels. I just have them resurfaced by a local shop, $50 for a resurface is cheap insurance.
I've never had any success using a piece of wooden dowel or a large socket to drive the seal into the case.
I use the proper installation tool and get it set to the correct depth, as the OP has stated he does. |
Is it ok to resurface a flywheel that has clearly been discolored from heat, or best to replace it? I didn’t consider having it resurfaced because of the discoloration and fairly deep grooves. But if I can’t solve this leak with the new flywheel, I am open to revisiting the decision.
_________________
Current hobby vehicles:
1967 Beetle
1973 Beetle
1998 Jaguar XJR, restored myself, in near-immaculate condition |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 25397
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
| aquifer wrote: |
Is it ok to resurface a flywheel that has clearly been discolored from heat, or best to replace it? I didn’t consider having it resurfaced because of the discoloration and fairly deep grooves. But if I can’t solve this leak with the new flywheel, I am open to revisiting the decision. |
Discoloration is not a big deal. It is not like you are working with a hardened tool like a chisel or file, that when the hardness is remove the tool will not cut properly..
Did you check that the oil drain in the flywheel seal bore is clear?? Even if that passage is clear, it is above the lower inner edge of the flywheel seal. Plus the flywheel seal is not designed to seal oil with the engine turned off. The inner edge of that seal has little raised lines on it that with the rotation of the crankshaft pumps the oil back into the inside of the crankcase.
VW of Brazil factory made a lower drain passage to skip having the VW engine droping so much oil after each shut down. You can add that drain yourself:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=523735&highlight=oil+drain
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available!
Last edited by Eric&Barb on Sat Nov 23, 2024 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aquifer
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 179
Location: Nebraska
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| aquifer wrote: |
Is it ok to resurface a flywheel that has clearly been discolored from heat, or best to replace it? I didn’t consider having it resurfaced because of the discoloration and fairly deep grooves. But if I can’t solve this leak with the new flywheel, I am open to revisiting the decision. |
Discoloration is not a big deal. It is not like you are working with a hardened tool like a chisel or file, that when the hardness is remove the tool will not cut properly..
Did you check that the oil drain in the flywheel seal bore is clear?? Even if that passage is clear, it is above the lower inner edge of the flywheel seal. Plus the flywheel seal is not designed to seal oil with the engine turned off. The inner edge of that seal has little raised lines on it that with the rotation of the crankshaft pumps the oil back into the inside of the crankcase.
VW of Brazil factory made a lower drain passage to skip having the VW engine dropong so much oil after shut down. You can add that drain yourself:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=523735&highlight=oil+drain |
You may have solved this problem. I haven’t checked my seal, but if there are little raised lines on it to auger the oil back in when it’s running, then I bet I know what happened. I rotated the engine “forward” when I was testing the fuel pump rod travel, but I also turned it backwards a little bit too. I wonder if I forced a little oil out when I turned it backwards. If that is possible, then that’s likely what happened.
I will check my seal tomorrow for the little ridges. I still need to test my end play, but I believe that’s a separate issue.
I really hope this was the cause of my leak! Definitely going to check this, thank you!!
_________________
Current hobby vehicles:
1967 Beetle
1973 Beetle
1998 Jaguar XJR, restored myself, in near-immaculate condition |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3209
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
Discoloration is not a big deal. It is not like you are working with a hardened tool like a chisel or file, that when the hardness is remove the tool will not cut properly.. |
I think it depends on if the flywheel is lathe cut or if it's ground. Since the blueing is a sign of localized hardening of the steel, what I've learned as a machine shop lurker is that flywheels should be surface ground, not cut on a lathe. The lathe tool will deflect when it hits the harder steel. I have no problem using a surface ground flywheel and have done it twice now, currently using a re-ground flywheel on the beetle I brought back to life.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 25397
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
| scrivyscriv wrote: |
I think it depends on if the flywheel is lathe cut or if it's ground. Since the blueing is a sign of localized hardening of the steel, what I've learned as a machine shop lurker is that flywheels should be surface ground, not cut on a lathe. The lathe tool will deflect when it hits the harder steel. I have no problem using a surface ground flywheel and have done it twice now, currently using a re-ground flywheel on the beetle I brought back to life. |
Blueing is only a sign of the steel having been heated up. Slip the clutch enough and you will blue up the material and at same time take any extra hardness out of the flywheel. Heck seen old fashioned spring clutch pressure plates get so hot as to remove the spring out of the springs and turn them blue. If you take a good quality steel chisel that cuts steel well and heat the tip up till it turns blue and let it cool down slowly the hardness will become less causing the chisel to no longer cut as well. Had to learn how to hand sharpen both drill bits and hand shape end mills as a machinist, and heating up the cutting edges while grinding/sharpening them was a big no no. Even if you then just grind barely off the blue the steel will still be softer than designed, then quite a bit more steel would have to be removed to get down to where the hardness had not yet been affected.
To harden steel it needs to be heated up and quickly quenched usually in a liquid like water or oil.
Have several times had a very slight amount of oil or grease get onto the clutch disc. This would cause the clutch disc to act like a suction cup to the flywheel, making it impossible to shift into any gear. Would then have to shut off the engine and engage reverse or first gear and start the engine again with the clutch engaged. Then let out the clutch pedal to hopefully in the next block or so to pop the clutch loose.
Second or third time this happened finally took a larger drill bit holding it by hand at an angle so the side of the tip of the drill would slice a thin channel into the flywheel. An "X" or "W" in a big pattern all around the surface works well. This allows air to slip in between the flywheel and clutch disc breaking the vacuum that otherwise would happen. No problems since doing this many decades ago. Additionally due to the drill bit cutting the flywheel shows it is not hardened.
Lathing can and will make for nice flat surface that is as good as grinding. It is just the grinding is a lot faster than lathing such a wide surface. Time is $$$$ in shops that are charging customers.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3209
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 3:42 am Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
The guys who did my flywheel grinding ran a pretty packed shop, they were set up to do just about anything for an auto engine and more. I think I paid $60 for grinding in 2014, and close to $100 around 2020-'21 when I had the second flywheel cleaned up. So it's not really economical to machine a used flywheel; but there is a lot to be said for original forged German steel vs. a cast Chinese unknown metal.
I think the OP's problem with the oil drip, if anything, is that seal drain on the front main. I believe either Bob Hoover or Tom Wilson recommended that the drain be drilled or ground out a bit -? Can't remember who wrote it. But it's a good idea when the engine is split.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aquifer
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 179
Location: Nebraska
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 7:00 am Post subject: Re: New crank seals leaking |
|
|
I think I figured this out, thanks again for all the advice.
I checked the oil passage and it was clear. I believe that turning the engine forward and backward when I was checking the fuel pump push rod was the culprit. I think it just worked the oil out past the seal. I installed a new seal and a new o ring just to be safe, and I turned the engine over by hand several times - but I did not turn it backwards - and there is no leak after a couple of days of monitoring it on the shop floor.
So then I wondered why it doesn’t leak every time when adjusting the valves, and I think it’s probably just that I was rocking it back and forth repeatedly that was why it leaked.
Time will tell, but everything went together perfectly, and the end play is perfect, so I think the mystery is solved.
_________________
Current hobby vehicles:
1967 Beetle
1973 Beetle
1998 Jaguar XJR, restored myself, in near-immaculate condition |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
