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Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

chrmcc wrote:
SGKent wrote:
if it is still FI, which is implied by your subject line, do a cylinder balance test to see if all 4 are firing evenly, then check the TSII. I would not have jumped to timing as the cause.


Thanks for the suggestion, coincidentally I looked at both those items this past week.

I checked the sensor, not very scientifically but it seemed to be working, for good measure I replaced it, no noticeable change.

Also, not very scientific, but I pulled each plug and didn’t notice much difference in an one cylinder.

Bill rebuilt the original distributor for me, I’ll try to dial it in once I have it hand.

In the meantime I’m inspecting vacuum lines and checking the fuel pressure.


With the engine warm, if you disconnect the wire to the TSII sensor the engine should instantly begin to run poorly and maybe even die. If nothing happens when you disconnect it, then it or its wiring is bad.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2024 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

chrmcc wrote:
SGKent wrote:
if it is still FI, which is implied by your subject line, do a cylinder balance test to see if all 4 are firing evenly, then check the TSII. I would not have jumped to timing as the cause.


Thanks for the suggestion, coincidentally I looked at both those items this past week.

I checked the sensor, not very scientifically but it seemed to be working, for good measure I replaced it, no noticeable change.

Also, not very scientific, but I pulled each plug and didn’t notice much difference in an one cylinder.

Bill rebuilt the original distributor for me, I’ll try to dial it in once I have it hand.

In the meantime I’m inspecting vacuum lines and checking the fuel pressure.


Good choices. Generally if the timing is off a few degrees, the engine is not going to smell rich. That implies either too much fuel, or cylinders are not firing. A miss at idle can be either from too rich or too lean. One common issue in the FI buses is that the fuel injector seals crack and get loose, allowing air to enter and cause a lean miss.

Sooty black plugs do imply a really rich mixture, which could be a bad fuel regulator. Another cause that would affect all the cylinders would be a leaking CSV.
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chrmcc
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2024 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
if it is still FI, which is implied by your subject line, do a cylinder balance test to see if all 4 are firing evenly, then check the TSII. I would not have jumped to timing as the cause.


Thanks for the suggestion, coincidentally I looked at both those items this past week.

I checked the sensor, not very scientifically but it seemed to be working, for good measure I replaced it, no noticeable change.

Also, not very scientific, but I pulled each plug and didn’t notice much difference in an one cylinder.

Bill rebuilt the original distributor for me, I’ll try to dial it in once I have it hand.

In the meantime I’m inspecting vacuum lines and checking the fuel pressure.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2024 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

if it is still FI, which is implied by your subject line, do a cylinder balance test to see if all 4 are firing evenly, then check the TSII. I would not have jumped to timing as the cause.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2024 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
chrmcc wrote:


Yes, I have an aftermarket aluminum scale, the original plastic broke into several pieces. Can you still find the more accurate plastic scales?


yea, those are pretty horrible

here is a good breakdown

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

I'd be looking for an original one myself


That's a great thread. I have the exact POS shown from Bud Depot, how hard is it to make an accurate aftermarket scale?

The search begins. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2024 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

chrmcc wrote:


Yes, I have an aftermarket aluminum scale, the original plastic broke into several pieces. Can you still find the more accurate plastic scales?


yea, those are pretty horrible

here is a good breakdown

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

I'd be looking for an original one myself
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Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2024 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

If you haven't done it yet add some FI cleaner to your fuel tank and see what happens.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2024 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

Bill Schwimmer wrote:
I am curious if you have one of the aluminum aftermarket timing scales. I chased my tail for a bit timing my bus. I matched up an OE plastic scale to it. And they are wayyyy off to the retarded side.



Yes, I have an aftermarket aluminum scale, the original plastic broke into several pieces. Can you still find the more accurate plastic scales?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
...IF...centrifugal advance is kicking in due to the high idle.


assuming (and I know better than to do that) everything was ok before the pertronix install, I feel that this is what is happening.

The advance is coming in early due to a garbage part. but, it would 100% make sense to make sure the whole system is (vacuum) leak free

and, I'll echo the timing scale thing. make sure you have a legit scale otherwise you're just never going to get things right


I would buy that.....but its not clear yet. It "sounds" like he put the P-tron in and drove it for a while no problems. And yes, with a little age it could have shit the bed.

But.....while for sure the P-tron crapping out could cause high idle timing....it's not likely to cause heavy enrichment.

Yes.....we could speculate that the rich reading on the plugs is due to poor ignition....poor spark.....maybe a weak coil? But there would also be a lot more running problems.

This started two years ago when he replaced the old distributor....and he is just noticing now?
My bet is that this thing has not been driven much or sat for a year plus. That sitting still alone is a killer on the FPR.

Ray


It ran well after I installed the ptron distro, I replaced the coil at that time as well, also ptron. Setting the timing at that time was a pain from what I recall.

My dad did not drive it much the last few years, since I have had it I usually make short trips a couple times a week and try to get out for a good highway run once a month.

It gradually stated running a bit rough, but the exhaust was becoming unbearably strong. That is what really made me start looking at it, I should have picked up on the idle creeping up sooner but didn't notice until I started trying to figure out why it was running rich.

in the original post I mentioned what I have done, it's running decent again and does not seem to as rich but I only have a small sample size.

There is no vacuum on the line coming to the distro while at idle. There are no obvious vacuum leaks, I checked at all the hose fittings.

I will check the fuel pressure and look for vacuum leaks in the areas suggested.

I will probably go back to an original distro and points. Between what I have read here and other places, the pertronix was probably a bad decision.

I appreciate everyone's input and suggestions. I enjoy driving and working on it so I want to learn more.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
...IF...centrifugal advance is kicking in due to the high idle.


assuming (and I know better than to do that) everything was ok before the pertronix install, I feel that this is what is happening.

The advance is coming in early due to a garbage part. but, it would 100% make sense to make sure the whole system is (vacuum) leak free

and, I'll echo the timing scale thing. make sure you have a legit scale otherwise you're just never going to get things right


I would buy that.....but its not clear yet. It "sounds" like he put the P-tron in and drove it for a while no problems. And yes, with a little age it could have shit the bed.

But.....while for sure the P-tron crapping out could cause high idle timing....it's not likely to cause heavy enrichment.

Yes.....we could speculate that the rich reading on the plugs is due to poor ignition....poor spark.....maybe a weak coil? But there would also be a lot more running problems.

This started two years ago when he replaced the old distributor....and he is just noticing now?
My bet is that this thing has not been driven much or sat for a year plus. That sitting still alone is a killer on the FPR.

Not saying you are wrong about the distributor being shit. But, I think he should check the basic before he swaps anything in or out and most especially before he starts tweaking with the AFM.

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
...IF...centrifugal advance is kicking in due to the high idle.


assuming (and I know better than to do that) everything was ok before the pertronix install, I feel that this is what is happening.

The advance is coming in early due to a garbage part. but, it would 100% make sense to make sure the whole system is (vacuum) leak free

and, I'll echo the timing scale thing. make sure you have a legit scale otherwise you're just never going to get things right
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

In my last comment I said that a vacuum leak would bypass air past the AFM flap and cause a "lean condition" and not the rich condition you are gettintg.

That is both correct and incorrect. Let me clarify please.

On this crude diagram, IF....you have a vacuum leak that is leaking anywhere BETWEEN the AFM aand the OUTSIDE of the throttle body (TB)....that air bypasses the AFM and gerts no fuel assigned to it so it WILL cause a lean condition.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This would NOT cause your black spark plug or your excessive idle timing issue.

HOWEVER:

If you have a vacuum leak into the intake system DOWNSTREAM/inboard of the TB....while this will still bypass air around the AFM...causing a lean condition of some level (could be big or small depending on the vacuum leak size).....because the air leak is actually on the HIGH VACUMM side of the TB....it can cause several other issues.

1. The leak I first described (between the AFM and TB) only affects fuel mixture. It does not affect VACUUM level.

2. The second type of air leak (downstream of the TB)...simultaneusly affects fueling by bypassing the AFM (lean input) but it also reduces vacuum.

This mimics a "throttle open" position. You are getting air past the throttle flap. While one might see that still as lean....the actual vacuum leak CAN or WILL affect the vacuum operated fuel pressure regulator.

At idle with no vacuum leaks, the rising rate fuel pressure regulator should give you about 28 psi. When you open the throttle and vacuum bleeds off you can get up to 36 psi of fuel pressure.

If you are idling and 29 psi of fuel pressure is what you should have...that is considered "100%" at idle. This means that every 1 = 3.517% of your fuel mixture.

So if you have a vacuum leak at idle on the inboard side of the TB....lets say you are at 36 psi when you should be at 29 psi. ...thats 7 psi too high ...with each 1 psi worth 3.517%....you could easily be 24.6% too rich across the board at idle.

So....with a small amount of extra air leaking in AND extra fuel being added in because of that vacuum loss....you would easily see a rich burn, higher idle speed and higher idle timing...IF...centrifugal advance is kicking in due to the high idle.

A quick check. At idle, pull the vacuum hose off of the advance unit. If the idle timing drops down again...and/or you feel suction at that small vacuum hose....then either your throttle is not closing all the way or the throttle plate is worn out. With the throttle plate fully closed there should be no vacuum advance signal.

Next check. Put a gage on the fuel rail. If yoyur fuel pressure is higher than 28-29 psi at idle....well...you have found the issue. To find out why....Take a hand vacuum pump and apply vacuum to the fuel pressure regulator while idling. If the pressure drops to 28-29 you have verified that the regulator is working.

Start checking for vacuum leaks now. Check the 0-ring between TB and plenum, runner boots, injector seals, and vacuum line or gasket to the intake plenum all the way to the gaskets between runner and cylinder head.

Ray


Last edited by raygreenwood on Mon Dec 09, 2024 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

^^^
this guy gets it Applause
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my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

With ported vacuum if the throttle plate covering the hole is slighly uncovering it at " idle, " the ported pressure drops from atmospheric as the hole is uncovered down to about half atmospheric.
So messing with the throttle endstop screw to fix a different problem causes too much advance at idle, made worse by the engine running faster and winding on centrifugal advance.

The $15 China distributors are made to have more maximum advance than a Bosch. Because that makes them seem more exciting.

My China distributor is sawn off and used as a No1 indicator for setting valves alongside crank fire system. Best use for a Chinese part...
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

Bill Schwimmer wrote:
I am curious if you have one of the aluminum aftermarket timing scales. I chased my tail for a bit timing my bus. I matched up an OE plastic scale to it. And they are wayyyy off to the retarded side.


I put marks on my fan shroud decades ago that shows TDC and 7.5° BTDC as determined by using a piston stop. I have a plastic scale and can easily verify it by comparing it to the mark on the shroud and time the engine even if the scale were to be damaged.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

I am curious if you have one of the aluminum aftermarket timing scales. I chased my tail for a bit timing my bus. I matched up an OE plastic scale to it. And they are wayyyy off to the retarded side.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2024 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
The stock distributor has two return springs for the centrifugal weights, one uses thin wire and a tight coil and is under tension at all times. The second one uses larger wire and has a loose coil and is not under tension until the centrifugal timing has already advanced by 10° or so. Your symptom could be because the spring with the smaller diameter wire either broke or came off it's pegs.


This is another common problem. Usually, you will see the timing jumping around because of this.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2024 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

The stock distributor has two return springs for the centrifugal weights, one uses thin wire and a tight coil and is under tension at all times. The second one uses larger wire and has a loose coil and is not under tension until the centrifugal timing has already advanced by 10° or so. Your symptom could be because the spring with the smaller diameter wire either broke or came off it's pegs.

I agree with others that the Pertronix distributors are trash. I thought nearly twenty years ago that this might be a good way to get around the problem with low quality Bosch points so bought one, it pretty much had problems right out of the box so I got the vendor to send me another one which also had problems right out of the box, so I sent them both back and installed a Pertronix ignition module in my old distributor, but it failed after a few months so some non Bosch points went in anf I have had no problems since.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2024 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

heimlich wrote:


If you have something pulling too much vacuum changing the distributor won't fix it unless the vacuum canister is the problem.


you can't have something "pulling too much vacuum" it's fucking impossible

manifold vacuum is 15-22 inHg at idle and the same is true at ported vacuum be it a carburetor or a throttle body

The only way those numbers change is at altitude but that's not a problem here.


Get your original distributer rebuilt. Bill (sparkwerks) is the man for this.

I wouldn't go fiddle fucking with anything until you get that china distributor out of the equation.

Sadly, people think "new is better" and it's just not the case anymore. Please, reach out to Bill. He'll get you dialed in, THEN we can see what you have going on once we get this dialed in to factory specs
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2024 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing / Idle Questions - 1978 Bay Window T4 2l FI Reply with quote

Chris,

As an FYI-

If your bus is going to be a long term keeper for you, consider replacing that Chinese distributor. I've autopsied the Pertronix and most of the other Chinese distributors and to be frank, they are junk like most poorly made VW parts from China.

The original distributors are vastly superior to the Chinese clones. Most of the Chinese distributors I've autopsied were sent in from customers who couldn't get their VW to run right with them. The customers wanted to know what was wrong with them. So, I autopsied them, shared my findings and threw the parts in my metal recycle bin.

I'm not trying to sell you anything but rather, give you and others a heads up.

Cheers-
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